What determines which attributes are carried over when copying a spell which depends on something in its casting?
Asked by Yesterday 6 years ago
Specifically, why is it that when you copy a Fling spell you deal the same damage with the copy as the original, and when you copy a spell like Epic Experiment the X values remain the same for the copy, but when you copy a spell with Converge you don't copy over the attribute of how many colours of mana were spent to cast the original?
VraskaTheCursed says... #2
not sure of this helps:
06.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object's characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by "as . . . enters the battlefield" and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
so i was half right. what's copied is the CHOICES made when casting it, as well as what's printed on the card. number of colors used to cast doesnt fall into either category, so it's not copied
April 30, 2017 4:30 p.m.
Thanks, but still I'm not sure I really understand what determines an X value being copyable as a choice made while casting the spell, but colours not?
April 30, 2017 4:51 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #4
The rules determine what's copied.
A ruling for Bring to Light on its Gatherer Page:
8/25/2015 If a spell with a converge ability is copied, no mana was spent to cast the copy, so the number of colors of mana spent to cast the spell will be zero. The number of colors spent to cast the original spell is not copied.
April 30, 2017 4:51 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #5
When casting a spell with X in its cost, you declare the value for X, then pay the cost. Not the other way around. The declaration for X is what is copied, and since it's not cast, you don't have to pay the mana.
a spell with converge cares about the colors of mana spent to cast it. Because the copy is created on the stack, no mana was spent to cast it, therefore its converge will be 0.
April 30, 2017 4:56 p.m.
This is a complicated question, I'll do my best to give you a thorough answer.
Because the X and the power of the sacrificed creature are both attributes that are fixed when you cast a spell based on what you paid to cast it. Sacrificing a creature for Fling and determining a value for X for Epic Experiment are part of the costs of casting those spells, and so are part of that spells copiable values.
Specifically, the copiable values for a spell are any choices that were made when casting it. The copiable values for a spell, as defined by rule 706.2, are as follows:
Any text printed on the card including:
- Name
- Mana Cost
- Color Indicator
- Card Type, Subtype, and Supertype
- Rules Text
- Power, Toughness, and/or Loyalty
And any choices made while casting it including:
- Mode
- Targets (Most copy effects allow you to change this one)
- The value of X
- Whether it was kicked
- How it will affect multiple targets
- Any so on (Refers to Additional or Alternate costs that modify the spell like Kicker. The sacrificed creature for Fling falls into this catagory. Keyword abilities that also go here include: Entwine, Splice, Suspend (slightly), Evoke (slightly), Fuse, Bestow (slightly), Dash (slightly), Awaken, and Aftermath. It technically also effects things that modify where the spell is going like Flashback, Buyback, and Rebound, even though those won't matter since the copy ceases to exist when it goes anywhere besides the stack or the battlefield (very few copied spells make it to the battlefield). Specifically this does NOT effect Overload, but that is because Overload is classified as a "text-changing ability" and can't be copied. A copy of an Overloaded spell goes on the stack as its un-overloaded counterpart, and you choose a target for it. Yes, this is weird.)
When it comes to Converge, the copy of the spell won't copy the types of mana spent to cast it, because that is defined by the rules as you paying a cost, rather than making a choice for the spell. When the game checks how many colors of mana were spent on the Converge spell it gets back 0, because the copy was never cast. If Converge were checking the copied spells mana cost, it would get a better answer, because mana costs are a copiable value, but it's a given that you paid mana to cast your spell, so the game doesn't track it as a choice for that spell.
Other things that will not happen when you copy a spell on the stack:
Anything that triggers "when you cast" it. (e.g. Storm, Gravestorm, Cascade) This is because the copy wasn't cast, it was just put on the stack.
Anything else that cares about the type of mana spent to cast the spell (Sunburst), because again, the copy was not cast.
April 30, 2017 5:22 p.m.
I'm realizing my answer was a little all over the place, here's a more straightforward way to figure it out. These are the rules for casting a spell:
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2ad) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2fh). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to begin this process (see rule 601.3), ignoring any effect that would prohibit that spell from being cast based on information determined during that spells proposal. (Such effects are considered during the check detailed in rule 601.2e.) If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 720, Handling Illegal Actions).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until its countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal, the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as its being cast such as buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2f). A player cant apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as its being cast (such as an X in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If the value of that variable is defined in the text of the spell by a choice that player would make later in the announcement or resolution of the spell, that player makes that choice at this time instead of that later time. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the players options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spells text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesnt change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target cant be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word target on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word target in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word target (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player cant be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; theyll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says Tap two target creatures, then the same creature cant be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says Destroy target artifact and target land, however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word target in multiple places.
- 601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The game checks to see if the proposed spell can legally be cast. If the proposed spell is illegal, the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 720, Handling Illegal Actions).
601.2f The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If multiple cost reductions apply, the player may apply them in any order. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be 0. It cant be reduced to less than 0. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes locked in. If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, Mana Abilities). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs cant be paid.
Example: You cast Altars Reap, which costs 1B and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost 1 less to cast. Because a spells total cost is locked in before payments are actually made, you pay B, not 1B, even though youre sacrificing the Familiar.
- 601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2ah are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as its cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spells controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority
Everything ABOVE that line (Rules 601.2a-d) are CHOICES made on how a player wants to cast their spell. These CAN be copied.
Everything BELOW that line (Rules 601.2e-i) is part of the PAYMENT made for that spell. These CANNOT be copied.
VraskaTheCursed says... #1
the reason is that when you copy a spell, you arent casting it. for Fling and Epic Experiment, the carried-over "attributes" that have to do with the spell don't depend on whether the spell was cast or not. this is why you don't have to sacrifice a second creature for Fling if you copy it.
on the other hand for a converge spell, say Bring to Light, converge depends on how many colors you spend to CAST it. because the copy isn't cast, NO colors were spent to cast it, so that value is always 0
April 30, 2017 4:23 p.m.