Use bounce to counter valakut
Asked by Kjartan 8 years ago
Using Scapeshift player A sacrifices 7 lands and finds 6 Mountains and a Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. Using Boomerang Player B thinks about bouncing Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle in response to the first Valakut trigger, well the rest of the Valakut triggers still go on the stack, or will they not count. and if they do count, can player B instead bounce a mountain, so the 5 othe clause won't be present during resolvation?
merrowMania says... #2
Well, the trigger for the one Mountain that got bounced will resolve and Bolt your face, since Valakut only cares about the OTHER five Mountains with respect the bounced Mountain
August 6, 2015 9:11 a.m.
@ merrowMania, what you said about bouncing a mountain is incorrect. Valakut on has an intervening if clause on the trigger itself. That if clause has no relevance to the resolution of the trigger, so if somehow all the lands disaapered before the trigger resolved (Quicken+Armageddon), the trigger will resolve and Bolt the target appropriately.
In short, unless you can stop the triggers themselves, player A will get 6 Lightning Bolts.
Although, if you have more than 1 copy of valakut in your deck, player A really should really grab 2 valakut and 5 mountains. This will net him/her 30 damage (10 triggers) instead of 18 damage.
August 6, 2015 10:42 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
@Boza: An "intervening if clause" in a triggered ability means it checks the condition both at the time it would trigger and as it would start to resolve. merrowMania's explanation is correct.
August 6, 2015 11:14 a.m.
from the gathererer:
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's triggered ability has an "intervening 'if' clause." That means (1) the ability won't trigger at all unless, at the time a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, you control five or more Mountains other than that new one, and (2) the ability will do nothing if you control fewer than five Mountains other than that new one by the time it resolves.
So removing Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle from the play would have no effect on the abilities on the stack, but reducing the number of Mountains in play would effect it.
Note: that if you remove one Mountain from play to reduce the number to 5, then the trigger from that Mountain that was bounced will still resolve as they would still control 5 other Mountains in play.
merrowMania says... #1
Everything will go on the stack regardless of any intervention. Whether they resolve properly is another matter. Bouncing Valakut has no impact on its triggers.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time wont affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone its expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
Bouncing a Mountain will stop the damage though.
603.4. A triggered ability may read When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]. When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isnt true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the intervening if clause rule. (The word if has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an if that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
August 6, 2015 9:09 a.m.