Undying/Persist Combo
Asked by invuln 9 years ago
Ive asked numerous people and it seems no one can ever agree, so now the internet gets to choose, lets say i have a 2/2 undying creature, and i have Cauldron of Souls on the field, in my mind, creature dies, comes back with the +1+1 counter, dies again but i give it persit with cauldron, well since it went to the graveyard with no -1-1 counter, it comes back with said counter, well here it gets debatable, i believe it loses its +1+1 counter in this process, therefor, if it dies again, its original undying kicks back in thus starting an infinite(tho easily managed) combo, and i in the right here or do i play this wrong? thanks!
Seraphicate says... #2
A better example, I think, would be any creature with persist Restless Apparition and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
The combo you mentioned requires Cauldron of Souls to be untapped in order for it to use it's ability again
July 28, 2014 12:14 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #3
As Devonin has pointed out, even with a method of repeatedly killing the creature (example: Ashnod's Altar ) it's not really an infinite combo unless the creature has both Undying every time it dies with a -1/-1 counter and Persist every time it dies with a +1/+1 counter on it. Seraphicate gives such an example, where the creature has Persist as an innate ability and is given Undying by a static ability of another card.
At no point will these abilities cause the card to "lose" the counter or have two opposite counters annihilate each other unless a 3rd ability is adding the opposing counter to it. It's either being returned to the battlefield by one ability or the other, not both, and when it comes back it has no memory of what it was or what counters were on it before it died.
July 28, 2014 1:29 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #4
Just so we're clear: Yes, a creature that has Undying will come back if it dies as long as it has no +1/+1 counters on it, and yes, a creature that has Persist will come back if it dies as long as it has no -1/-1 counters on it. The abilities have synergy in that one will trigger when one will not.
It does not lose any counters when it's coming back from the graveyard. It loses all counters when it changes zones to the graveyard after Undying/Persist triggers are checked. When it comes back it will have either a +1/+1 or a -1/-1 counter on it depending on what ability is bringing it back, beyond that it will be considered a completely new card. This means that if it was given Persist by Cauldron of Souls it will no longer have Persist. If it has Undying as a static ability and it dies again Undying will trigger as long as there are no +1/+1 counters on it, it will then return to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
I think I and the others answering get caught up on the word "infinite," as this is by no means infinite with the cards described. The point I'd want to make sure is clear is that a creature that is given an ability by an activated ability loses it when it changes zones. See:
400.7 An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. ...
The rule goes on to give exceptions, but they do not apply here.
July 28, 2014 4:36 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
When an object changes zones, it it becomes a completely different object with no relation to what it was before, and that includes losing any counters it had on it in the previous zone. The only card that keeps counters as it changes zones is Skullbriar, the Walking Grave , and that's only because he has a special ability specifically saying that.
There are a few exceptions to the whole "no relation" thing, and the one that applies in this situation allows the Undying and Persist abilities to know that the creature card in the graveyard was the dying creature that triggered them.
Devonin says... Accepted answer #1
It is not an infinite combo unless a) The creature in question is a 1/1 and b) you have a way to infinitely untap the Cauldron of Souls .
The 2/2 with undying dies. It comes back with a +1/+1 counter on it. It dies again, and before it does, you give it Persist with the Cauldon. It will now come back as a 2/2 with a -1/-1 counter on it. It doesn't in any way die from that. When it dies next, yes, it still has Undying and will come back with a +1/+1 counter. It doesn't still have persist from the original use of the Cauldron though, since the card that comes back is a new card with no memory of what it was when it died the last time.
It's not infinite, and while it is a synergy, it's not even really a combo. Just good.
July 27, 2014 11:58 p.m.