Triggered Abilities During Combat?

Asked by alexthegreat38 9 years ago

I have two questions about the ordering of triggered abilities during combat, and can't really figure out how to ask them without giving examples. I have two questions at this point:

  1. My board consists of Goblin Rabblemaster, Heir of the Wilds, and a single Goblin token from the Rabblemaster. I enter combat to get another token. When I declare attacks, Goblin Rabblemaster gets +2/+0 and becomes a 4/2. Does this trigger Heir of the Wilds' +1/+1 ability? I've been told by a judge that it doesn't, but his explanation was confusing and I was hoping to find someone who can really help me understand this type of interaction.

  2. This situation is similar, but I'm not sure if it falls under the same category rules-wise. This time, my field consists of a recently cast Goblin Rabblemaster and the new Surrak, the Hunt Caller. When I enter combat, can I choose to stack the triggers in such a way that I get the goblin before the Formidable check happens, and use Surrak's ability to give the Rabblemaster haste? Or do these things happen in such a way that I have no choice?

Sorry for the drawn-out questions, but hopefully someone can help me understand how these sort of things happen during combat. Thanks!!!

Boza says... Accepted answer #1

tl;dr No on both.

1/ The heir trigger checks at the time you declare attackers if you control a 4/X creature. If you do, then its trigger is put on the stack and resolved. Rabblemaster's is put on the stack after it is declared as an attacker. Only once it resolves, does it gain +2/+0. By that time, Heir has already checked to see if you are ferocious enough, so you get nothing on him. From gatherer:

Heir of the Wilds has a triggered ferocious ability with an intervening if clause. That ability will check if you control a creature with power 4 or greater whenever Heir of the Wilds attacks. If you dont at that time, the ability wont trigger at all. If it triggers, the ability will also check if you control a creature with power 4 or greater as it resolves. If you dont at that time, the ability wont do anything. Note that the creature with power 4 or greater you control as the ability triggers doesnt necessarily have to be the same one you control as the ability resolves.

2/ Similar situation again, though there are still no rules on formidable available. Will wait for the release notes before being 100% on this, but the beginning of combat step happens even before the declare attackers step. Surrak will not trigger at beggining of combat unless you control 8 power then. You only have 7, as the trigger from rabblemaster is only then put on the stack - it has to resolve.

March 14, 2015 6:48 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #2

@Boza: There won't be any special rules issued for Formidable because it's an "ability word", which means it has no inherent rules meaning. It's only put into the card's text box to conceptually link it together with other cards that use the same basic mechanic.

March 14, 2015 12:35 p.m.

sonnet666 says... #3

Everything Boza said is correct, I just felt there were a couple points that could use clarifying:

  1. Heir of the Wilds, and Surrak, the Hunt Caller both have triggered abilities with intervening "if" clauses. (i.e. "if you control a creature with power 4 or greater," "if creatures you control have total power 8 or greater") The if clauses checks to see if their condition is true twice, once when the ability triggers and once when it's about to resolve. If the condition isn't true when the ability is about to resolve it will be removed from the stack and do nothing, but if the condition isn't true when the ability triggers, then it will fail to be put on the stack at all.

  2. The problem with these scenarios is that in each case both abilities trigger simultaineously off of the same turn base action (Goblin Rabblemaster's token creating ability and Surrak, the Hunt Caller's formidable both trigger at the beginning of combat, Heir of the Wilds and Goblin Rabblemaster's last both trigger when they attack, and creatures attack all at once in in the same turn based action.), so in both cases, by the time Goblin Rabblemaster's ability resolves to give you Ferocious or Formidable, the other ability has already checked the boardstate for it's condition and found it lacking.

As a general rule of thumb, if two triggered abilities have the same time based trigger point (at the beginning of (blank), when/whenever (blank) attacks/blocks/becomes blocked), then you can never use the effects of one to satisfy the conditions of the other.

March 14, 2015 6:59 p.m.

alexthegreat38 says... #4

Thanks for the clarification, guys. Basically what I'm getting from this is that abilities with intervening "if" clauses don't even go on the stack unless their condition is satisfied when they check. So since the ferocious/formidable check happens before the Goblin Rabblemaster ability has resolved, it has no effect. Is that a fair simplification?

March 15, 2015 2:20 a.m.

sonnet666 says... #5

Yep, remember to pick an answer so this this will stop being marked as un-answered. Boza should probably get it as he answered first.

March 15, 2015 3:42 a.m.

alexthegreat38 says... #6

Got it. Just wanted to make sure I fully understood before choosing an answer

March 15, 2015 9:36 a.m.

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