The difference between pir and double
Asked by griffstick 5 years ago
These two cards are worded almost the same. But when it comes to planswalker abilities, does Pir, Imaginative Rascal Add extra counters to the walker when they tic up? Because I know that doubling season does not. Also why doesn't Pir, Imaginative Rascal double counters on walkers when they enter and Doubling Season does but doubling season doesn't add counters for activating the walkers ability.
Gidgetimer says... #2
Also of note is that Pir doesn't actually double counters put on anything. It puts one additional counter on no matter how many counters would be put on.
July 22, 2018 11:02 p.m.
Also worth noting that while Pir doesn't double counters (just adds one extra), it will put an additional counter on a planeswalker that enters the battlefield (so Ajani Steadfast will enter the battlefield with 5 counters, not 4.
Gideon, Champion of Justice is another planeswalker with an ability that adds counters as part of the effect, and thus would work with Doubling Season.
FancyTuesday says... Accepted answer #1
The critical difference between Doubling Season and Pir, Imaginative Rascal is that Doubling Season uses the language "if an effect...", Pir does not qualify itself in the same way. Doubling Season only doubles counters placed on permanents that result from an effect putting them there, per its wording Pir is watching for any event where where a counter is placed on a permanent. An "effect" is the result of any ability or spell.
For Planeswalkers, the loyalty counters placed on them when they enter the battlefield are the result of an ability they have.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
So the counters are placed there as the result of an (unlisted) ability resolving, that's an "effect" and Doubling Season doubles those counters.
In most cases counters placed on Planeswalkers from the activation of their abilities are not part of the effect, they're actually the cost to activate the ability, same as you would pay life or mana to pay for the activated ability of a creature. Now, if the ability placed loyalty counters on the Planeswalker as is the case with Huatli, Radiant Champion's +1 and Ajani Steadfast's -2 then Doubling Season would double those counters.
July 22, 2018 9:57 p.m.