Soul Seperator mechanics
Asked by LikesGuys 7 years ago
So with Soul Seperator coming with EMN I'm curious how it will legally work with cards like Evil Twin, Quicksilver Gargantuan, or something like Lord of Extinction.
Will the 1/1 be able to enter the battlefield as copies/LoE abilities?
Raging_Squiggle says... Accepted answer #2
If you copy Evil Twin, it enters as a token copy of any creature in play except it's still a 1/1, is also a spirit, and has flying.
If you copy Quicksilver Gargantuan, it enters as a token copy of any creature in play except it's still a 1/1, is also a spirit, and has flying.
If you copy Lord of Extinction, it will just be a copy of it with P/T being 1/1, is also a spirit, and has flying.
613.1. The values of an objects characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
July 15, 2016 5:16 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #3
Yes; the only thing copying takes into account is other copied attributes, otherwise it copies the card as printed. This is a special case of the rules. This Oracle clarification appears on the Gatherer page for Clone:
7/15/2007 If the chosen creature is copying something else (for example, if the chosen creature is another Clone), then your Clone enters the battlefield as whatever the chosen creature copied.
I believe Soul Separator's P/T setting would override that of the original creature, so it will end up something like this:
- Quicksilver Gargantuan copying Llanowar Knight -> you'd get a 7/7 token and a 1/1 copy of Llanowar Knight
- Evil Twin copying Llanowar Knight -> you'd get a 2/2 token and a 1/1 copy of Llanowar Knight with Evil Twin's activated ability.
- Lord of Extinction -> you'd get a X/X token and a 1/1 copy of Lord of Extinction with his P/T setting ability. The X/X's size would be fixed at the size he had when the ability was activated.
I could be wrong on the last one, but that's what my research suggests would happen.
EDIT: Ah I might have misunderstood the question. Interesting all the same!
July 15, 2016 5:21 p.m. Edited.
Raging_Squiggle says... #4
Characteristic-Defining abilities that modify P/T are applied in layer 7a, while an effect that sets P/T to a specific number is applied in Layer 7b. So Layer 7b overrides that of 7a, setting LoE's P/T to 1/1 even though it still has the ability that would say otherwise, so yes, your research was fine.
July 15, 2016 5:29 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
Yeah, layers is probably the most complex rule in Magic.
July 15, 2016 5:40 p.m.
So just to make sure I'm understanding in the case for LoE specifically. Even though that the 1/1 spirit is a copy and "copies the original card text" the layering rules would override and it would still enter as 1/1?
July 15, 2016 5:52 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #8
Correct. The token will have the ability "this creature's P/T are each equal to the number of cards in all graveyards." Except it will actually just have P/T of 1/1, because of how the layers are set up.
July 15, 2016 6:03 p.m.
Actually for the Lord, 706.9d applies. The copy will not have its CDA.
Also the zombie token for Evil Twin will be 0/0. (And soon die.) Soul Separator exiles a card not a permanent. As a card Evil Twin is always 0/0.
Epochalyptik says... #1
Link all cards in your question.
Soul Separator
July 15, 2016 5:05 p.m.