Shuffling a permanent that can't be shuffled
Asked by lil_cheez 4 years ago
Hello planeswalkers,
If I use Chaos Warp , Oblation etc targeting something that will not be shuffled into the owner's library (for example a token or a Commander), the owner of that permanent will shuffle anyway?
Asking for effects that care about shuffling (like Cosi's Trickster ) and top manipulation ( Crystal Ball )
dragonstryke58 says... #2
Sorry, actually my last point was a little off and I missed the edit window.
Even if a card is no longer in the expected zone, you will still shuffle your library. The only time you wouldn't shuffle is if the event causing you to shuffle is countered or replaced by a replacement effect.
August 7, 2019 4:47 p.m. Edited.
For Chaos Warp you don't shuffle your library if the target has a replacement effect or ceases to exist, like a token.
701.16d If an effect would cause a player to shuffle one or more specific objects into a library, and a replacement or prevention effect causes all such objects to be moved to another zone instead, that library isn't shuffled.
September 30, 2019 4:58 p.m.
GrandRoyal says... #5
So if I'm understanding correctly, if in EDH your cmdr gets Chaos Warp ed and you put it into the command zone instead of the library, you don't shuffle your library but you still do the rest of the effect?
September 30, 2019 5:21 p.m.
Correct , so you can stack the top card of your library using other effects to get card you want on the battlefield.
September 30, 2019 5:29 p.m. Edited.
dragonstryke58 says... Accepted answer #7
Tokens will still cause Chaos Warp to shuffle. The rule quoted applies only if the permanent never makes it to the library.
Tokens don’t automatically cease to exist once they leave the battlefield. Unless some effect replaces or prevents them from reaching their destination, they still end up in the intended zone before ceasing to exist due to SBA’s.
Basically, if the thing to be shuffled hits the library - shuffle. If it doesn’t hit the library - don’t shuffle.
Even the Gatherer rulings for the card make sure to include if a token were to be shuffled.
9/22/2011: The owner of a token is the player under whose control the token was put onto the battlefield. If a token is shuffled into a player’s library this way, that player shuffles before revealing the top card of that library.
September 30, 2019 7:38 p.m. Edited.
GrandRoyal says... #8
Oh man.... that's awesome! Hmmm, I wonder how someone could break that... Brainstorm and other deck manipulators seem really fun with that... Maybe some kind of Grixis or Temur thing would be really fun with that... or some kind of yidris combo maybe? hmmmmmm....
October 1, 2019 5:07 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #9
I guess I neglected a relevant response to the OP's mention of top manipulation...
Once you begin to resolve an item on the stack, you must resolve the effect fully before adding anything to the stack.
In the case of Chaos Warp , once you shuffle the permanent (or replace the event of it being shuffled into your library), you must resolve ALL of Chaos Warp . This includes revealing the top card of your library and if it's a permanent, put it to the battlefield. That means you cannot shuffle for Chaos Warp , then activate Crystal Ball to scry the top 2, and then reveal for Chaos Warp 's effect.
dragonstryke58 says... #1
First of all, tokens can be shuffled into the library. It's just that when state-based actions are checked, the token will cease to exist as they cannot exist anywhere other than the battlefield.
111.7. A token that’s in a zone other than the battlefield ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)
Second, commanders can be shuffled into a library too. The reason commanders do not shuffle if they are moved to the command zone is due to the fact that the replacement effect (that allowed them to move to the command zone if they were to go to any zone other than the battlefield) replaces the event shuffling it into the library. If the player does not elect to use the replacement effect, commanders can be shuffled into a library.
Basically, as long as the card gets to the library to be shuffled, you will get shuffle triggers like Cosi's Trickster .
August 7, 2019 4:34 p.m.