returning to the battlefield combo
Asked by metalmustaine 9 years ago
hey guys, what do you think about this?
undying + Gaea's Anthem will it fizzle the ability?
Conjurer's Closet + persist and unearth, does it reset the state of the creature and not be exiled or put into a graveyard?
Gaea's Anthem has no effect on the undying ability. Your Geralf's Messenger will be a 4/3 and when it dies it will come back as a 4/3 with a +1/+1 counter on it making it a 5/4.
With Conjurer's Closet, flickering the same Geralf's Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it, it will come back as a new creature with no +1/+1 counter.
With the unearth ability, i believe you would put it's trigger on the stack first and then the closet's last. Closet resolves first and flicks the unearth creature. It now has no knowledge of its previous self and stays permanently, the exile trigger resolves/fizzles.
March 31, 2015 7:45 p.m.
Hah, I've been thinking about permanent undying as well. The best idea that came to my was combining it with Retribution of the Ancients
March 31, 2015 8:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #4
A spell or ability only fizzles if all of its targets are illegal at the time it would resolve. Neither undying nor persist targets anything, so neither undying nor persist can fizzle.
Both undying and persist look at counters. Counters are not the same as static +/+ or -/- buffs, and effects that care about counters will not consider static buffs. An effect deals with counters only if it explicitly uses the word "counter." Gaea's Anthem doesn't involve counters, so it doesn't interact with persist or undying.
For the Conjurer's Closet question, there are three significant rules.
First, unearth has a replacement effect that exiles the unearthed creature if it would leave the battlefield. This replacement effect only applies if the creature would be sent to a zone other than exile.
Additionally, when an object changes zones, it becomes a new object with no relation to its previous incarnations in other zones.
Lastly, when one player controls multiple abilities that have triggered since the last time a player has received priority, that player chooses the order in which the abilities are placed onto the stack. In this case, you have a delayed triggered ability from unearth and a triggered ability from Conjurer's Closet both triggering at the beginning of the end step.
These three rules mean that you can successfully blink an unearthed creature and get around the delayed triggered ability that would cause you to exile the unearth creature at the beginning of your end step.
March 31, 2015 9:44 p.m.
metalmustaine says... #5
thanks to all of your answers. it helped a lot!
can i ask another question in this thread?
for a +1/+1 counter, will it be removed by a -1/-1 counter or is it an entirely different counter..?
March 31, 2015 9:55 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #6
If a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it receives a -1/-1 counter, they cancel each other out and the creature is left with none. I think.
March 31, 2015 10 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
If a permanent has N +1/+1 counters and N -1/-1 counters on it, those counters are removed as a state-based action. There's a technical issue that may come up, though. If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters at one time to reduce its toughness to 0 or less, it dies at the same time the counters are removed. Because its last known state on the battlefield involved it having both kinds of counters on it, neither undying nor persist abilities will trigger for that creature.
March 31, 2015 10:08 p.m.
metalmustaine says... #8
another question: does a creature "die" when you sacrifice it?
does this combo work: Barrage of Expendables + Dictate of Erebos
March 31, 2015 10:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Please ask unrelated questions in new threads.
"Dies" simply means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield." A creature dies if it goes to the graveyard from the battlefield, regardless of the reason (destroy effects, 0 or less toughness, sacrifice, etc.).
So yes, activating Barrage of Expendables's ability will cause Dictate of Erebos's ability to trigger. Note that the triggered ability will be put onto the stack on top of the activated ability, so if you targeted a creature, your opponent can sacrifice that creature to cause your damage ability to fizzle.
March 31, 2015 10:10 p.m.
metalmustaine says... #10
thanks for your help Epochalyptik
sorry if i have a lot of follow up questions unrelated to the previous question because it's quite tedious to create another thread when i already have a read question at hand.
but anyway many thanks to all for your help
March 31, 2015 10:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
It's not really that much more effort, and it's more helpful to the community and to those randomly searching on Google.
Don't forget to select the most complete and accurate answer to remove this question from the active queue.
thegigibeast says... #1
For undying + Gaea's Anthem, it doesn't works. Only +1/+1 COUNTERS can cancel -1/-1 counters, not only buffs. For example, persist + undying is something cool, because when the creature dies, you choose which one triggers, so one time you choose persist, one time undying... The best card to achieve this that I can think of now is Cauldron of Souls.
For Conjurer's Closet I am not sure. Maybe Epochalyptik could give us his opinion? He is the best to answer those questions!
March 31, 2015 7:37 p.m.