Pir, Imaginative Rascal + Doubling Season + Loyalty Abilities

Asked by ThunderCrank 5 years ago

If the wording for Pir, Imaginative Rascal is correct, it not only adds +1 Loyalty when playing a Planeswalker, but also when i use a + Ability (i.e. instead of +2 it will be +3) On the contrary, Doubling Season only doubles the Loyalty Counters when a Planeswalker enters the Battlefield since it only doubles counters placed by an effect.

What, however, would happen if i have Pir, Imaginative Rascal aswell as Doubling Season on the Battlefield and activate the + Loyalty Ability of a Planeswalker? Pir, Imaginative Rascal says that it places "that many plus one of each of those counters are put on that permanent instead"

Is this a Replacement Effect, and if so, is it affected by Doubling Season? (i.e. instead of +1 it would be + 4 because of the additional counter from Pir, Imaginative Rascal and Doubling Season ) Or is something in between (i.e. only the additional counter that is added by Pir, Imaginative Rascal is doubled by Doubling Season (i.e. instead of +1 it would be +3 because the extra dounter is doubled)

Neotrup says... #1

The event of adding loyalty counters is still a cost, not an effect, even when being modified by Pir, Imaginative Rascal. Doubling Season still cannot alter it.

May 23, 2018 4:11 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #2

@Neotrup: The problem is the bolded text in the following:

614.16: Some replacement effects apply "if an effect would create one or more tokens" or "if an effect would put one or more counters on a permanent." These replacement effects apply if the effect of a resolving spell or ability creates a token or puts a counter on a permanent, and they also apply if another replacement or prevention effect does so, even if the original event being modified wasn't itself an effect.

I saw this question asked in an official Judge forum the other day. The Judges are holding off on answering until the Release Notes / FAQ comes out, but right now the rules seem to say Doubling Season will apply in this situation.

May 23, 2018 4:28 p.m.

ThunderCrank says... #3

@Neotrup Thx for your answer.

@Rhadamanthus Guess we have to wait for the official Rulings for this Card. According to the Rules and the phrasing in the card itself it would make sense that Doubling Season would indeed effect the number of the counters added with loyalty abilities when Pir, Imaginative Rascal is also in Play. But i doubt WOTC would want it to work that way.

May 23, 2018 4:53 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #4

If I remember correctly that last sentence of the rule might have been a change introduced a couple years ago because of some unintuitive interactions Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet was causing in Standard. Reversing the change would bring those issues back, but I don't know if all the cards involved are relevant enough in Modern or Legacy for that to really matter.

May 23, 2018 5:18 p.m. Edited.

Goliath89 says... #5

Expanding on OP's question, what happens to a Planeswalker's starting loyalty with both of these cards out? Is it (Starting Loyalty x 2) + 1, (Starting Loyalty + 1) x 2, or can I stack the replacement effects as I please?

June 8, 2018 3:45 p.m.

Neotrup says... #6

You apply the replacement effect in either order. As you control the planeswalker, you get to choose the order.

June 10, 2018 5:02 p.m.

Rhadamanthus is correct, confirmed today on judge rule forum

July 11, 2018 12:47 a.m.

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