Phyrexian Revoker and Rewinding Mana Abilities
Asked by CogMonocle 8 years ago
So say I have a Phyrexian Revoker naming Selvala, Explorer Returned, a Phyrexian Altar, and my own Selvala (maybe my opponent played one and I drew mine later or something).
So I begin to cast a 5 mana spell. I sacrifice Phyrexian Revoker to the altar to make a mana, then now that there's no phyrexian revoker, I activate selvala, but only make 2 mana. I do not activate any more mana abilities, and since I do not have enough mana, the game rewinds, as per this rule:
717.1. If a player Takes an illegal action or starts to Take an action but cant legally complete it, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are Canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasnt reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, caused a library to be shuffled, or caused cards from a library to be revealed.
So in this scenario, a mana ability like phyrexian altar's can be rewound, but a mana ability like selvala's cannot. Can you then rewind the mana ability of the altar, getting back revoker? The net effect of all this would be that you get to activate selvala despite having a phyrexian revoker naming it.
That of course assumes you have no actual lands on the battlefield. If you have any untapped lands, you can legally finish paying the mana cost and so will have to.
May 7, 2015 11:05 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #3
Devonin makes a good point. After rereading your question, it seems like you just decided not to activate any additional mana abilities. This you can't do. If you announce a spell or an ability, you complete the casting or activation process if possible. You cannot decide to just stop halfway through. Rule 717.1 applies only to illegal actions and actions that you cannot legally complete.
At the FNM level, a judge might allow this if you miscalculated your play, but likely not if you're doing it to get a trick activation through a corner case in the rules.
May 7, 2015 11:09 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #4
I don't really know how to answer this question but I do want to put out some information that epoch and devonin have missed.
A player cannot be forced to activate mana abilities. If a player has floating mana and must pay a cost then they have to pay for that cost but they do not need to activate mana abilities to pay for a mandatory cost. (rule 117)
Abusing this situation is not in a clear part of the game. If we read the rules by the book we just reverse the mana abilities but not the drawing cards ability and allow the game to continue without penalty. Part of the problem with this is both the CR and the IPG talk about illegal actions but they aren't talking about the same thing. The illegal actions in the IPG are actions that are taken knowing that they are illegal. The illegal actions under rule 717 are actions the become illegal at some point or the player failed to realise that they screwed up.
Obviously the easiest solution to this is to give Selvala errata that says "activate this ability on when you could cast an instant". Without that we live in a rather gray area of the rules. However no one will ever actually use this in a tournament.
May 7, 2015 11:43 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #5
717.1 Explicitly states that it applies only if an illegal action was taken or starts to take an action and cannot legally complete it. If OP has mana abilities available, then it would seem at first glance that he or she can legally complete the action.
I assume you're referring to 117.3c, which states,
117.3c. Activating mana abilities is not mandatory, even if paying a cost is.
The example given for this rule is casting a suspend card through a Lodestone Golem (or rather, not casting the card even though suspend instructs you to).
I found the following rule upon further review.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.
Now, it would seem that 601.2 and 117.3c mean, in conjunction, that OP isn't forced to activate an additional mana ability in order to continue casting the spell. So we go back to the first answer, which is that OP can indeed reverse Phyrexian Altar's mana ability.
This is, in my opinion, somewhat counterintuitive; I assume this interaction exists in order to help players in a situation in which they may need to commit more resources than anticipated in order to complete an action.
May 7, 2015 11:57 p.m.
CogMonocle says... #6
Man selvala is so weird. You have an alternate win condition of having that 5 cost spell being a Panglacial Wurm you cast off of a fetchland - your opponent is just too confused at this point to know what's going on.
Anyway, thanks for the help all!
May 8, 2015 12:39 a.m.
CogMonocle says... #7
Don't know why I thought wurm cost 5. Same point though.
May 8, 2015 12:40 a.m.
What everyone has forgotten is that technically, he must have produced the mana before casting the spell, as inbetween casting the spell and paying the cost there is no priority.
March 12, 2016 5:06 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #9
A. Holy necro Batman!
B. Because you can activate mana abilities as part of casting a spell.
Epochalyptik says... #1
You may indeed reverse that ability, as it doesn't meet any of the criteria defined in 717.1.
May 7, 2015 10:06 p.m.