Phage & Endless Whispers
Asked by -MisterJ- 9 years ago
Okay, my play group has been arguing again over how this works SO...
I have Phage the Untouchable as the commander in my deck. She was able to resolve from the command zone due to my Platinum Angel .
I move to attack step and declare attack of just Phage the Untouchable . My opponent does something like block with [Insert 4/4 or bigger] that trades kill for kill. Damage resolves and she dies, and instead of choosing to put her in the command zone, I let her truly die and enter the graveyard. Endless Whispers triggers and resolves.
I chose to give her to the opponent that blocked and killed my beloved little commander.... Now for the question...
Since she does return to play under my opponents control, barring anything stopping her first triggered ability, and the opponent loses the game, does she return to play under my control since she was last in play, or to the command zone, or to my graveyard?
See, that's exactly what I said. Then up came another argument over the EXACT same thing when my fiance stole someone's Eldrazi Monument with Memnarch , then lost Memnarch , then later lost the game with all other players still alive. I said NO he doesn't get it back, it's exiled as she controlled it and now its gone. But [insert squabbling over rules here] happened and I finally said screw it and blew up the entire field so it didn't matter.
June 7, 2014 7:05 a.m.
I feel like I may have posted this elsewhere before and I'm sorry if I did, but I failed to find the original posting so... Yeah. Here's to helping n00bs!
June 7, 2014 7:07 a.m.
Because Phage is your commander, you can replace -any- Exile event with moving the Commander to your Command Zone, so when that player dies, and Phage gets exiled, you could move her back to the Command Zone.
You don't have the option of letting her hit a graveyard to trigger Endless Whispers, because at no point in that process does Phage die. She's either returned to your control on the battlefield (if she'd been, say Act of Treason 'd and the player died before the end of their turn, or she'd be exiled by 800.4a and you could shunt that over into the Command Zone.
June 7, 2014 8:28 a.m.
Of course we would use the replacement effect, but that isn't the real question here, it is all about what zone she is would have been placed into previous to that effect happening. Same with the second scenario i provided, since its not a "until end of turn" effect
June 7, 2014 11:22 a.m.
As I understand it, the only actual -change- of control happened when Phage died, and the triggered ability it had put it under somebody else's control. The change of control happened as the resolution of an ability, but has no duration. There's no effect currently going on to be ended by 800.4a.
Since there's no currently in force effect changing the controller of Phage, she sticks around until the time all the losing player's permanants are exiled, and then you can put it into the Command Zone.
From the examples of objects and control in 800.4a:
Example: Alex casts Bribery, which reads, "Search target opponent's library for a creature card and put that card onto the battlefield under your control. Then that player shuffles his or her library," targeting Bianca. Alex puts Serra Angel onto the battlefield from Bianca's library. If Bianca leaves the game, Serra Angel also leaves the game. If, instead, Alex leaves the game, Serra Angel is exiled.
Since the effect which Serra Angel into play under Alex's control started and ended with the resolution of that spell, when Alex leaves the game, the Angel does not go back to Bianca, but is instead exiled.
June 7, 2014 12:15 p.m.
Which would be the same resolution that Goofball explained, and is exactly what my point it. But while I was playing another game not involving Phage at all, the Memnarch incident described above, it is put in the same situation as Phage.
Either way if another player controls a permanent they do not own, and it does not have a time limit on the control, it becomes exiled. In the Memnarch situation when my fiance lost the game after taking another players artifact, the artifact is exiled. Same with Phage. She is exiled and then I use the replacement effect to place her in the command zone instead.
So we're all on the same page as far as I can tell
June 7, 2014 10:32 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #8
The Memnarch situation is different. There was a control-changing effect giving the player control of Eldrazi Monument (namely, the effect generated by Memnarch's "Gain control of target artifact" ability), so the effect ends when that player leaves the game. The fact that the effect doesn't have a specified duration doesn't matter.
June 8, 2014 5:24 p.m.
Pretty sure the lack of a specified duration is -exactly- what matters Rhadamanthus.
If Memnarch said "for as long as you control Memnarch" then it would matter. As it stands, things you stole with him stay with you even if he dies, and if you were to leave the game, those objects would be exiled, rather than revert to their owner's control, because there is no effect in force to end. An ability resolved, which changed the controller. Nothing is sticking around to make sure it stays that way.
June 8, 2014 9:07 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
Memnarch 's ability creates a control-changing effect. That's why it's able to work at all (instead of doing nothing when you activate it). The rule about players leaving the game specifically says that control-changing effects end, and says nothing about effects with a duration.
800.4a When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who's still in the game.
June 8, 2014 11:45 p.m.
For an effect to end, the effect has to still be happening (Like the effect of Glorious Anthem )
Control effects which last "until end of turn" or "until X leaves the battlefield" or "As long as Y remains tapped" etc have durations, and those effects will all be ended by the player leaving the game.
The examples right in how that process works show a Bribery a card which simply "gives you control" when the spell resolves (In the same way that Memnarch gives you control when the ability resolves) and how in those cases, since there's no duration to end, the card will end up getting exiled.
June 9, 2014 10:11 a.m.
The whole reason the third clause is even there is for cases like that. You've got four steps to clear all their stuff out of the game:
1/ Everything they Own leaves2/ Any effects giving them control of a thing they don't own, end3/ Anything still on the stack ceases to exist4/ Anything still under their control is exiled
Why is step 4 even there then? Step one handles everything they own, whether they control it or not, and step 2 covers anything they were controlling but don't own. So what is step 4 FOR if not "Things they control, don't own, but which aren't being controlled by an ability of ongoing duration"
June 9, 2014 10:20 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #13
Yes, you have the right idea about the reasons for all the different steps. My point is that Memnarch is not the same as Bribery and Endless Whispers . Bribery and Whispers aren't control-changing effects. They don't "give" control of anything, they just put a permanent onto the battlefield under a certain player's control. "Gain control of (whatever)" is a control-changing effect, and that's what Memnarch does. If it weren't then the artifact would remain under the control of its current controller, because it would remain subject to either the rule about resolving artifact spells (301.2. When an artifact spell resolves, its controller puts it onto the battlefield under his or her control.) or whatever other effect put it onto the battlefield under that player's control.
You're right to say that "for an effect to end, the effect has to still be happening". After Memnarch's ability resolves, you have control of the artifact because the ability's effect is now in place. The reason you continue to keep control of the artifact is because the effect doesn't have a specified end for its duration. For example, compare Memnarch to Master Thief or Metallic Mastery .
"Gain control of target artifact" is as much of a control-changing effect as "Gain control of target artifact (for some duration)", and it will end when a player leaves the game.
Goofball says... Accepted answer #1
Ah, Deja Vu all over again is it? XD
My understanding is that Phage, having entered the battlefield already under your opponent's control, will wind up exiled when that player dies because there are no standing control effects to end (the endless whispers effect is a one and done sort of thing which permanently grants control), so command zone it is.
800.4a When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end, and all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who's still in the game.
June 7, 2014 6:49 a.m.