Persist and Grumgully and counters.
Asked by vasarto77 4 years ago
So, if I have Grumgully, the Generous out and I have creatures with persist, what happens in regards to the +1+1 and -1-1 counters? Like, does adding a -1-1 counter remove the +1+1 counter or do both exist at the same time while simply just negating each other until one is removed entirely by an effect that states the removal of said counter. Because, if they remove each other naturally, that would mean that a card like Woodfall Primus Hits the field and gets a +1+1 counter from grummy. MY opponent uses a Doom Blade on it. It comes back into play with a -1-1 counter AND and +1+1 counter from grummy which means they both are removed from the card and thus even if my opponent has a death touch creature army or more kill spells or whatever it can never leave the battle field because its persist will be infinite since it can never leave the battle field with a -1-1 counter since grummy will keep removing that counter when it comes back into play entering the battlefield with a +1+1 counter since it must leave and come back into play as per the persist rules.
- 122.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
Basically you remove counters of both types until only one type remains, when it comes to +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters. This is done as a state-based action, so unless there's something killing your creature as it's entering the battlefield (and thus would still have the -1/-1 counter on it), Persist will work to bring it back.
So in your example, Woodfall Primus dies and Persist returns it to the battlefield. Because of Persist, it enters with a -1/-1 counter, but because of Grumgully, the Generous , it also enters with a +1/+1 counter. The next time a player would receive priority, state-based actions are checked and the two counters are removed. If Primus dies after that point, it died without a -1/-1 counter and thus Persist will trigger again. Even if your opponent wants to kill it as soon as possible with a Murder or something, state-based actions will be checked first and Primus will lose the counter before it dies again.
However, if you've got Rendclaw Trow out, and your opponent plays Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite , Rendclaw dies. Persist returns it to the battlefield with a counter, and Grumgully gives it the other counter. However Elesh Norn's ability is still in effect, killing Rendclaw immediately before state-based actions are checked (Elesh Norn's effect doesn't need to wait for a player to receive priority to affect things). Because state-based actions hadn't yet removed the counters when Rendclaw died, it still had the -1/-1 counter on it and Persist does not trigger.
October 6, 2019 7:17 p.m.
Scarlet2009 says... #3
the statement "can never leave the battlefield" is incorrect. there are ways of removing creatures without them dying. like Path to Exile
October 8, 2019 12:28 a.m.
Well, "can never leave the battlefield" was already incorrect because the Persist creatures could still die (which is leaving the battlefield to go to the graveyard), they'd just also keep coming back due to the counters negating each other.
pskinn01 says... #1
if a creature has a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, then both are removed as a state based action. So this makes it difficult to get rid of if you have something that gives counters as it enters the battlefield. Which is one reason why exile spells/abilities are common in commander - for those stupid hard to get rid of permanents that are detrimental to anyone who doesn't control it.
October 6, 2019 5:42 p.m.