Outcome of an ability that resolves which is dependent on a creatures toughness?
Asked by Peaches5616 5 years ago
Phenax, God of Deception gives creatures an ability to tap and mill a target player for X, where X is that creatures toughness.
If a player activates the mill ability of a creature where X is 10, and in response another player plays Turn to Frog what is the outcome?
Does the Turn to Frog resolve turning the creature into a 1/1 resulting in a mill effect of one card?
OR
Does the Turn to Frog resolve turning the creature into a 1/1, but the mill ability would resolve resulting in a 10 card mill?
OR
Does the Turn to Frog resolve turning the creature into a 1/1 negating the ability?
I'm almost positive the third outcome is incorrect, but I'm unsure as to the first two.
In addition, if the creature is tapped thus activating a 10 card mill, would a spell like Vraska's Contempt in response destroy the creature resulting in a 0 card mill because the creatures toughness does not exist on the battlefield, or would the tapped ability resolve resulting in a 10 card mill regardless?
In other words, is the tapped ability dependent on the creatures toughness at the time of activation or at the time the ability resolves?
Thanks for the help!
Peaches5616 says... #2
cdkime The ability exists independently, yes, but what happens when the ability is dependent on information from the game?
After asking the question I did some digging and found this...
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.
Specifically, "If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in."
Does that rules text indicate that the ability would use the creatures current toughness when it resolves resulting in a one card mill?
June 1, 2018 12:48 p.m.
Ignore my last post, as it was based on faulty firing from the hip. My mistake!
Here's the actual answer, taken from Phenax's Gatherer rulings:
If you activate the ability Phenax grants to creatures you control, the toughness of the creature is calculated as the ability resolves. If the creature is no longer on the battlefield at that time, use its toughness when it was last on the battlefield.
June 1, 2018 12:52 p.m.
Peaches5616 says... #4
cdkime Oh my god! I have seriously been scouring the internet for how this would play out and not even one time did I think to check Gatherer. I feel so silly for complicating this infinitely beyond what was required.
Thank you for your help!
June 1, 2018 12:54 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
In the case of Turn to Frog, 1 card (if nothing else is adding to its toughness). In the case of Vraska's Contempt, 10 cards.
The value of X for a spell or ability only gets "locked in" at the beginning if it's something the player has to choose a value for during the casting/activating process. Otherwise, it's determined as the spell/ability resolves. In your example it will use the creature's current toughness as it exists on the battlefield, and if it no longer exists then it will use last-known-information from the last moment the creature was on the battlefield. This is covered in the last few sentences of the rule quoted by cdkime, above.
Note that Turn to Frog only changes base P/T. Any other +/- effects currently affecting the creature will still be applied on top of that.
Caerwyn says... #1
Once activated, the ability exists independently of the source. The value of X has already been determined, so in this case, the ability would mill for 10 regardless of what occurs next. You could kill the creature, turn it into a 1/1, bounce it, etc., none of that is going to change the ability itself.
Here is the rule:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
June 1, 2018 12:42 p.m. Edited.