Mutated Sarkhan Clones starting loyalty
Asked by noonenowhere 3 years ago
Will clones of planeswalkers mutated into being permanent creatures, start with any loyalty or enter with zero.
Basically thinking of some janky mutating on top of Jace, Cunning Castaway with some help from Sarkhan the Masterless and wondering what comes out the other end when he makes clones.
It depends on whether Jace, Cunning Castaway or the other planeswalkers are the top card of the stack or somewhere below when Sarkhan the Masterless's ability wears off.
If the planeswalker card is at the top of the merged permanent, then the entire stack is a planeswalker with the rules text of any creatures below it. You cannot mutate this further without turning it into a non-Human creature again. If it takes damage, it will lose loyalty counters as any planeswalker would, and will leave the battlefield if it runs out of loyalty counters.
If a creature card is at the top of the merged permanent, then the entire stack is a creature that happens to have loyalty abilities. If it takes damage, it does not lose loyalty counters because that rule applies to planeswalkers, and this merged permanent is not a planeswalker (it just has loyalty abilities). It also will not die if it runs out of loyalty counters.
The characteristics of the entire merged permanent are copiable, which is the part relevant to your question. The third ability of Jace, Cunning Castaway effectively reads "Create two tokens that are copies of [This Permanent], except they're not legendary" (since whenever a card refers to its own name, it effectively means "this object right here").
So if your merged permanent is a planeswalker, then the Castaway copies will enter as planeswalkers with 3 starting loyalty and whatever abilities the creatures in the merged permanent have.
If your merged permanent is a creature, then the Castaway copies will enter as copies of that creature with all of the abilities under it, including the loyalty abilities, but no starting loyalty (because that's part of the rules governing planeswalkers entering the battlefield, and this copy is not a planeswalker).
The same would apply if you were to Clone the stack in some fashion (such as with Spark Double).
May 19, 2020 8:50 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
So, the answer to your question depends on if mutate makes the new abilities copyable and if placing the initial loyalty counters is an ability. Rule 613.2a says that merging is applied in layer 1a and is therefore a copiable effect. 306.5b says that placing initial loyalty counters is an intrinsic ability ability.
Now where I'm not comfortable making a declaration because I can't find reference is if the printed loyalty number is referenced by the intrinsic ability or if the intrinsic ability is modified so that it contains the printed loyalty. I am of the opinion that it is the second case and Jace, Cunning Castaway's intrinsic ability is actually "Jace, Cunning Castaway enters the battlefield with three loyalty counters on it"
306.5b A planeswalker has the intrinsic ability “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 706, “Copying Objects”) and changes to an object’s base characteristics determined by merging an object with a permanent
May 19, 2020 8:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
@Gidgetimer Only a planeswalker will have the intrinsic ability described in 306.5b. If the card/token on top of the merged object isn't a planeswalker then the merged object isn't a planeswalker and won't have the intrinsic ability. This is like how the intrinsic ": Add " ability associated with the Forest land type is only there while the land actually has the Forest subtype.
May 19, 2020 9:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer, I'm basing my statement on the following:
- 209.1. Each planeswalker card has a loyalty number printed in its lower right corner. This indicates its loyalty while it’s not on the battlefield, and it also indicates that the planeswalker enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters on it.
If the merged permanent containing Jace, Cunning Castaway has a creature as the top card and not a planeswalker, then the Castaway copies would enter the battlefield as a creature, not a planeswalker, and thus not enter with "that many" loyalty counters on it.
Tylord2894 says... #1
The short answer is that the copies will enter with 0 Loyalty counters.
The copiable values of a mutated permanent are the values printed on the topmost card plus the abilities granted by the other permanents in the mutation (loosely speaking). "Loyalty" is a value only of Planeswalkers (again, speaking loosely). Thus, any copy of a mutation with a creature and Planeswalker-turned creature (where the non-Planeswalker is on top) will have no Loyalty counters as it enters the battlefield. Luckily, it will have the abilities of the Planeswalker.
There are some details that I glazed over up there for brevity, so I'll go over then here. Mutate affects the first layer of an object. An object's "copiable values" are defined there. In the case of a mutated object, the copiable values are defined by the topmost card (taking into account any copy effects like that of Clone) plus any abilities granted by the cards below. Since the "Loyalty" of an object is only defined for Planeswalkers, the creature that would enter the battlefield as a clone of the mutation doesn't have any Loyalty counters.
Does that make sense? There's a lot there. If you want me to point to the specific rules, I can do so, but I didn't want this post to be unnecessarily long.
Hope this helps!!
May 19, 2020 8:50 p.m.