Multiple Notion Thief... is this correct?
Asked by Rayenous 8 years ago
Scenario... 3 Players (A, B, C)
Player A controls 1x Notion Thief
Player B controls 2x Notion Thief (Progenitor Mimic + a token copy)
Player C does not control any Notion Thief
Player B Activates Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
From what I understand, this creates 3x initial 'events'
"Player A draws a card"
"Player B draws a card"
"Player C draws a card"
If I understand Replacement effects, the following happens...
Player A's draw... initially becomes:
"Player A skips this draw, Player B draws a card" (due to Progenitor Mimic).
This then becomes:
"Player A skips this draw, Player B skips this draw, Player A draws a card." (Due to Notion Thief)
This then becomes:
"Player A skips this draw, Player B skips this draw, Player A skips this draw, Player B draws a card." (Due to token copy of Progenitor Mimic)
No further replacements apply. (All possible replacements have already applied once)
Player B's draw becomes:
"Player B skips this draw, Player A draws a card." (Due to Notion Thief)
Then it becomes:
"Player B skips this draw, Player A skips this draw, Player B draws a card." (Due to Progenitor Mimic)
No further replacements apply. (Token has not applied a replacement to this event, but cannot replace the current event, so it does not need to)
Player C's draw can work one of 2 ways...
Player C can choose to apply either Notion Thief's replacement or one of Player B's two replacement options.
Choosing Notion Thief, it becomes:
"Player C skips this draw, Player A draws a card." (Due to Notion Thief)
Then it becomes:
"Player C skips this draw, Player A skips this draw, Player B draws a card." (Due to Progenitor Mimic)
No further replacements apply. (Token has not applied a replacement to this effect, but does cannot replace the current event, so it does not need to)
If Player C chooses a Progenitor Mimic, it instead becomes:
"Player C skips this draw, Player B draws a card." (Due to Progenitor Mimic)
Then it becomes:
"Player C skips this draw, Player B skips this draw, Player A draws a card." (Due to Notion Thief)
Then it becomes:
"Player C skips this draw, Player B skips this draw, Player A skips this draw, Player B draws a card." (Due to token)No further replacements apply. (each replacement has already been applied and can only be applied once.)
Is the above correct?
Long winded way to say Player B draws all 3 cards, yes.... but I want to ensure I understand what is actually happening, and why.
What you quoted applies in a 2 player game, where each player controls exactly one Notion Thief...
I am not asking if 'extra' cards are being drawn... just 'who ends up drawing the cards that are to be drawn'.
I know that replacements don't apply repeatedly, my example ensures that each replacement effect is only applied once per card draw event.
August 19, 2015 9:19 a.m.
What Boza is saying: As long as there's 2 Notion Thiefs that are controlled by different players, no player can draw cards except the first card they draw.
It doesn't matter how many players there are, who controls the thieves, or how many more a player has than another player - when there's more than one player controlling a Notion Thief, noone draws extra cards.
August 19, 2015 9:23 a.m.
However, that doesn't seem to be faithful to the quoted ruling... so I might be interpreting the post wrong.
August 19, 2015 9:28 a.m.
Derp, misread that Gatherer entry, sorry for that. After going through the rules of both Notion thief and Plagirize and the rules for replacement effects, I could not find relevant information.
From what I read in your examples, the reasoning seems to be correct - whoever has the most NT gets all the draws.
August 19, 2015 9:28 a.m.
GoblinsInc says... #6
The affected player chooses in what order to apply the replacement effects. Since player B has two thief's iirc, either B or the player who was drawing should get it, depending on the order chosen.
Hard to explain on the phone, sadly.
August 19, 2015 9:51 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #7
Most of the time, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea will cause the first draw of the turn for two of the three players. In the given scenario, depending on whose turn it is and when, nobody's draws are replaced because this is the first card draw for everyone (for example, it's Player B's upkeep). Then the replacement effects start kicking in on the draw step when Player B gets their first draw for the turn.
It's possible someone else stated this and it went over my head.
August 19, 2015 7:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #8
@nobu_the_bard: Notion Thief's ability specifies "If an opponent would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps." This clause means that the replacement effect is only ignored if you are drawing your card for the turn. It applies to all cards drawn during other steps, all cards drawn during someone else's draw step, and all extra cards drawn in your own draw step.
@Rayenous: Your explanation is correct. Player B will draw all three cards. Ancestral Recall OP.
Boza says... #1
4/15/2013: If you and an opponent each control a Notion Thief, the replacement effects generated by their abilities will essentially cancel each other out. If the opponent would draw a card other than the first of his or her draw step, that draw will be skipped and you'll draw a card. The opponent's Notion Thief will then cause that draw to be skipped and the opponent will draw a card instead. Neither replacement effect can apply to this event again, so your opponent draws a card.
If there are Notion Thiefs controlled by at least two different players, no extra cards can be drawn by anyone.
614.5. A replacement effect doesnt invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
August 19, 2015 9:13 a.m.