Interactions with Unearth (Sedris EDH)
Asked by Lurac 8 years ago
My friend is making a Sedris, the Traitor King EDH, and i have to check up some of the interactions.
1a) Firstly, I have heard that Unearthed creatures can be flickered, to let you keep them forever. Is this true?
1b) I have also heard that Whip of Erebos does not let you do this. True?
2a) Sacrificing unearthed fatties to Disciple of Griselbrand or similar outlets gives great value, especially if you have an ability like that of Ruthless Deathfang in play, but do they trigger death abilities, like that of Driver of the Dead?
2b) In this case, is there a difference due to the wording between Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos (i.e. the unearthed creature dies, but is not put into a graveyard)
3) Lastly, I found a weird interaction with Soul Seizer Flip. When you pull it out of the yard with haste, it's easy to get in that 1 flying damage and transform it. Is it still exiled at end of turn?
Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #2
1
I assume that by 1b you mean to ask whether Whip of Erebos will allow you to keep the creature you return if you flicker it. The answer is yes.
Both unearth and Whip of Erebos's activated ability create replacement effects that exile the returned creature if it would leave the battlefield. Because the replacement effect would exile the card, it only cares if the card would go somewhere other than exile; if the card is already being exiled by another effect, the replacement effect will leave it alone. Therefore, you can blink the returned creature to dodge the replacement effect from either unearth or Whip of Erebos and keep a creature indefinitely.
2
"Dies" means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield." Sacrificing something causes it to move from the graveyard to the battlefield, so creatures die when sacrificed. The only problem is that unearth's replacement effect will override going to the graveyard with going to exile, so you wouldn't be able to get a "dies" trigger from an unearthed creature.
Although the printed text of Grave Pact is different from the printed text of Dictate of Erebos, both cards' Oracle text now indicates that the abilities trigger whenever a creature you control dies. Grave Pact was simply printed before "dies" was added to Magic's glossary.
3
Unless the transformation process involves a zone change, transforming a permanent does not cause it to become a new object. It merely causes it to lose some characteristics and gain new ones. Further, unearth and like effects don't care whether the object they returned is still a creature at the time the delayed triggered ability would exile it. Once the card has been returned, the DTA just tracks the object, not its characteristics. So if you didn't blink Soul Seizer Flip, then it will still be the same object and will be exiled regardless of whether it's currently Soul Seizer Flip or Ghastly Haunting Flip.
July 29, 2015 8:06 a.m.
WorkAround says... #3
1a,1b You can't flicker at all. What happens is you unearth or whip Wingmate Roc it comes back. When you cast Cloudshift on Wingmate Roc it tries to exile it but then Whip or unearth(state based actions are checked) buts in and exiles it. This causes the spell to fizzle(stop at that point) because the target is gone.
2a Disciple of Griselbrand works fine because it is just moving the card from the battlefield to graveyard in which it gets redirected to exile. Driver of the Dead does not work because it is redirected to exile.
Rule 700.4 The term dies means is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
3 Soul Seizer Flip or any other card that transforms does not become a new object when transforming therefore all effect that were effecting it before still effect it after. So it will be exiled.
Rule 711.7 When a double-faced permanent transforms, it doesnt become a new object. Any effects thatapplied to that permanent will continue to apply to it after it transforms.Example: An effect gives Village Ironsmith Flip (the front face of a double-faced card) +2/+2until end of turn and then Village Ironsmith transforms into Ironfang Flip. Ironfang will continueto get +2/+2 until end of turn.
July 29, 2015 1:54 p.m.
WorkAround says... #4
The key words for 1a and 1b is exile it instead of the regular effect.
July 29, 2015 1:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@WorkAround: Your answer for #1 is incorrect. The replacement effect only cares if the cards would go somewhere other than exile. It doesn't apply to cards that are already moving to exile.
July 29, 2015 2:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
From Whip of Erebos's Gatherer rulings:
9/15/2013: If a creature returned to the battlefield with Whip of Erebos would leave the battlefield for any reason, its exiled instead. However, if that creature is already being exiled, then the replacement effect wont apply. If the spell or ability that exiles it later returns it to the battlefield (as Chained to the Rocks might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The effects from Whip of Erebos will no longer apply to it.
From Sedris, the Traitor King's Gatherer rulings:
10/1/2008: If a creature returned to the battlefield with unearth would leave the battlefield for any reason, it's exiled instead -- unless the spell or ability that's causing the creature to leave the battlefield is actually trying to exile it! In that case, it succeeds at exiling it. If it later returns the creature card to the battlefield (as Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The unearth effect will no longer apply to it.
Boza says... #1
1a) yes, that is true. Unearth only cares if the card goes to exile. The fact that it can return at a later point does not concern unearth. When it returns, the card will be a new object with no memory of its previous existence, so you get to keep it.
1b) Whip of Erebos basically lets you unearth anything. Its text is identical in function to unearth.
2a) No, they do not trigger on death abilities, as sacrificed unearthed creatures never hit the graveyard.
2b) dies = new text that replaces that wordy "put into a graveyard from the battlefield". Grave Pact = Dictate of Erebos, except one of them has flash.
3) When a double faced card that is not a planeswalker-to-be (aka Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip), it remains the same object after it transforms. It will be exiled at end of turn if unearthed.
July 29, 2015 7:50 a.m.