How does Gratuitous Violence and Warstorm Surge work against planeswalkers?

Asked by DrukenReaps 6 years ago

So I know if I attack a planeswalker Gratuitous Violence does not double the damage on the walker. Warstorm Surge however means I target a player and then may place the damage on one of that player's walkers. So does Gratuitous Violence double the damage when I target the player and carry all that damage over to the walker?

NARFNra says... Accepted answer #1


If your opponent decides to apply the Gratuitous Violence trigger first, the damage gets doubled, and then you choose whether or not to redirect it to a planeswalker. If the opponent chooses to apply the planeswalker redirection choice first, then the damage will only be doubled if you choose to do it to the player.

In other words, unless your opponent purposefully wants their planeswalker to take doubled damage, Gratuitous Violence won't double damage against the planeswalker. Explanation below.


So, Gratuitous Violence is a replacement effect - it uses the words "instead". The Planeswalker damage redirection rule is ALSO a replacement effect, according to the rules.

When two replacement effects are trying to replace the same thing, the person WHO IS BEING AFFECTED (not the controller of the spell) chooses which order to apply the effects in. So even though YOU own the Gratuitous Violence and Warstorm Surge and YOU make the decision over whether or not to redirect the damage, the TARGETED PLAYER chooses which order to apply the Gratuitous Violence trigger and the Planeswalker Redirection effect in.If the affected player chooses to let Gratuitous Violence apply first, then it sees it's going to do damage to a player and doubles the damage. After that, the Planeswalker Redirection effect kicks in, and at that point you decide whether or not to deal damage to the player or the planeswalker. Because Gratuitous Violence has already been applied, the damage will always be doubled if Violence goes first.

However, if the affected player makes you choose whether to use the Planeswalker Redirection effect first, you decide whether or not you're doing damage to the player or planeswalker before Gratuitous Violence happens. Then, Gratuitous Violence checks whether or not you're still doing damage to a player or planeswalker. If you've already chosen to redirect the damage to a planeswalker, Gratuitous Violence doesn't do anything because it's not damaging a player.

So essentially, your opponent can always choose to apply the Planeswalker Redirection effect first, which means that the Planeswalker won't take doubled damage. Theoretically, if your opponent chose to let Gratuitous Violence apply first, you could deal double damage to either of them - but I can't really think of a sensible situation where they'd want to do that.


306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

August 15, 2017 8:01 p.m.

DrukenReaps says... #2

NARFNra Wow. Thanks for such a comprehensive answer. Very appreciated.

August 17, 2017 8:37 p.m.

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