How does flickering a manifested card work?

Asked by knowledgeabletyrant 2 years ago

If I have a manifested creature on the battlefield and I target it with Cloudshift , what happens if the manifested creature is an instant or sorcery? If it's a creature, can I have it enter as that creature rather than a manifest? What about other permanent types?

Clockwurk says... #1

I looked at the release notes and found this: -There are no cards in the Fate Reforged set that would turn a face-down instant or sorcery card on the battlefield face up, but some older cards can try to do this. If something tries to turn a face-down instant or sorcery card on the battlefield face up, reveal that card to show all players it's an instant or sorcery card. The permanent remains on the battlefield face down. Abilities that trigger when a permanent turns face up won't trigger, because even though you revealed the card, it never turned face up. Also -If a face-down permanent you control leaves the battlefield, you must reveal it. You must also reveal all face-down spells and permanents you control if you leave the game or if the game ends. You reveal it when it enters the exile zone, then it returns a face down, 2/2 manifest. I believe the same applies for creatures.

March 21, 2017 7:53 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #2

Ok so Clockwurk got what happens when a spell or ability tries to flip a face-down instant or sorcery, and the rules for revealing facedown cards as they go to public zones, but then goes a bit off track assuming that Cloudshifted morphs and manifests will re-enter facedown.

Unless a spell or ability states otherwise permanents enter the battlefield face up. Cloudshift does not say otherwise so any card exiled with it will re-enter face up. Instants and sorceries can not enter the battlefield, so they will stay exiled. Permanents can enter the battlefield and enter the battlefield face up.

110.6b Permanents enter the battlefield untapped, unflipped, face up, and phased in unless a spell or ability says otherwise.

304.4. Instants cant enter the battlefield. If an instant would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone instead.

307.4. Sorceries cant enter the battlefield. If a sorcery would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone instead.

March 21, 2017 9:04 p.m.

Clockwurk says... #3

110.6b Permanents enter the battlefield untapped, unflipped, face up, and phased in unless a spell or ability says otherwise. The ablility certianly says otherwise.

March 21, 2017 9:08 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #4

Show me where on Cloudshift it says "Return that card to the battlefield face down".

March 21, 2017 9:14 p.m.

Clockwurk says... #5

Cloudshift does not, however manifest, an ability, does. "If something tries to turn a face-down instant or sorcery card on the battlefield face up, reveal that card to show all players it's an instant or sorcery card. The permanent remains on the battlefield face down." from release notes

March 21, 2017 9:23 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #6

Stick with me here through this process and please remember that magic cards can not "look forward" to see the end result of something.

  1. Manifest has you put the top card of your library on the battlefield face down. It specifies "face down" so any card can enter and it enters face down.

  2. You cast Cloudshift and it resolves.

  3. The card is exiled and revealed.

  4. The card attempts to re-enter, Cloudshift doesn't specify so it attempts to re-enter face up.

At no point in this process did anything try to turn a face down instant or sorcery on the battlefield face up. Turning face up is a specific game action that never happened. A face down card was exiled- perfectly acceptable. The card attempted to re-enter and since face down was not specified for this entry it attempts to enter face up. If that card is an instant or sorcery it can not enter. The rule that you are caught up on is referencing three cards that were printed in Onslaught block that allowed you to flip other cards face up. Break Open, Ixidor, Reality Sculptor, and Skirk Alarmist.

March 21, 2017 9:51 p.m.

Clockwurk says... #7

I'm done arguing with you

March 22, 2017 8:04 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #8

@Clockwurk: What Gidgetimer was trying to explain is that Cloudshift's effect doesn't turn a face-down permanent on the battlefield face-up. Rather, it moves a permanent on the battlefield to exile, then moves it back to the battlefield. Other rules of the game will cause the face-down card to be turned face-up during this process, but it's not Cloudshift that's trying to do it.

Let's say we used Soul Summons to manifest a Lightning Bolt. It's face-down on the battlefield as a 2/2 creature. Now we cast Cloudshift targeting that creature. As Cloudshift starts resolving, we follow the instructions in order, so first we move the card to exile. It gets turned face-up when it moves to exile because:

406.3. Exiled cards are, by default, kept face up and may be examined by any player at any time. Cards "exiled face down" can't be examined by any player except when instructions allow it...

That is, because Cloudshift doesn't specifically say to exile the card face-down (compare Praetor's Grasp, etc.), that means it's face-up. Note that because the card isn't on the battlefield, the ruling you found in the release notes doesn't apply here. So now we have a face-up Lightning Bolt in exile. As we continue to follow Cloudshift's instructions, we try to return Lightning Bolt to the battlefield but run into a problem:

304.4. Instants can't enter the battlefield. If an instant would enter the battlefield, it remains in its previous zone instead.

The last instruction on Cloudshift has become impossible, so we have to ignore it. The Lightning Bolt stays in exile.

Does that make more sense?

March 23, 2017 11:23 a.m.

Clockwurk says... #9

Yes, thank you Rhadamanthus.

March 23, 2017 9:09 p.m.

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