Hardened Scales and my Evolve/enchantment deck, Trigger timings?

Asked by ginko2580 5 years ago

Example: Boon Satyr ETB and a Renegade Krasis/Oath of the Ancient Wood/Master Biomancer/Hardened Scales already OTB. Timing, does what I hope happen?

lets choose Trigger # 1 as Oath of the Ancient Wood. I want a +1/+1 on this creature now. (Biomancer could be trigger #1 I guess, but why?)

Add +1/+1 from the "enchantment" entering (and trigger Scales +1/+1) boon = 6/4 now. Trigger Renegade +1/+1 evolve (and scales again, Renegade is 5/4), Boon enters as a 8/6 correct?

This is the part i'm not sure on timing,

Then trigger Master Biomancer +2/+2 on Boon (and again +1/+1 from Scales) Boon = 11/9 (lifegain +11)?

Or does Master Biomancer have to Trigger BEFORE Renegade Krasis? and only getting 9/7 and +9 lifegain?

Because, I'm sure it should end up as; 3 CMC = an 11/9 Boon Satyr flashing OTB and a 5/4 Renegade Krasis in the end of this. and "X" Lifegain ("X" depends on order of Biomancer/Renegade Triggers).

Fated Intervention is another card in this deck idea i'm using in SOON TO BE Modern (This deck will not be Legal Standard sadly, Oath/Scales really is the key card i'll be missing)... with 2 ENCHANTMENTS entering the Field. the First Enchantment creature to enter adds +2/+2 to Biomancer (with the Oath/Wood / Hardened Scales / Master Biomancer / Renegade Krasis combo +1/+1 counters flying around all over the place) and then work out the lifegain/+1/+1 counters for the next Centaur Enchantment Creature to ETB.

Hornet Queen /Savage Summoning and all the crap listed above. Each creature will enter and trigger seperately right? that I am correct on right?

deck:How to Maximize +1/+1 counters. is the deck and Hardened Scales works amazing with Evolve/Enchantment combos!

GlistenerAgent says... #1

Please post your questions in seperate threads.

  1. Master Biomancer s ability is static, meaning that it applies at all times while it's on the battlefield and does not trigger. The effect of Hardened Scales is a replacement effect, meaning that it will simply replace the Biomancer's putting of counters with putting one more counter on. This means that when Boon Satyr enters the battlefield, it will enter as a 7/5 (two +1/+1 counters from the Biomancer, plus one from Hardened Scales ). Now, you have two triggered abilities to put on the stack from Boon Satyr officially entering the battlefield: Oath of the Ancient Wood and Renegade Krasis . Let's say you put the Oath trigger on top and the Krasis trigger on the bottom.

The Oath of the Ancient Wood trigger, when it resolves, will put a +1/+1 counter on Boon Satyr , but Hardened Scales will replace that effect with two +1/+1 counters, making the creature a 9/7. Next, when Renegade Krasis 's ability resolves, it will gain 2 +1/+1 counters (Hardened Scales replacement effect) to become a 5/4. Then, it's second ability will trigger, putting a +1/+1 counter on Boon Satyr . The Hardened Scales will replace this effect again, so Boon Satyr will be a 11/9 by the time all is said and done. I'm not sure where you're getting the lifegain from, because no lifegain card was mentioned.

  1. The Fated Intervention tokens will enter as 6/6's with the Master Biomancer + Hardened Scales interaction, similar to the first scenario. You have two Oath triggers and two Renegade Krasis triggers, which you can stack how you want. If you put the Oath triggers first, then each trigger will allow you to put two +1/+1 counters on a creature you want (two because of Hardened Scales ). Then, when Renegade Krasis evolves, it will put two +1/+1 counters on each other creature you have with a +1/+1 counter. Finally, the second Renegade Krasis trigger will resolve, putting two +1/+1 counters on each creature you control with a +1/+1 counter (now including that first Renegade Krasis ). One thing to note is that the Centaurs enter simultaneously, so the abilities all trigger at the same time.

  2. Yes, Hornet Queen putting four Insects onto the battlefield will trigger evolve abilities so long as they enter larger than Renegade Krasis from Biomancer/Hardened Scales . Note that Hornet Queen itself has an ETB trigger, meaning that you can stack the evolve triggers on top of the Hornet Queen trigger should you want to.

Damn, that's complicated.

September 6, 2014 9:37 a.m.

GlistenerAgent says... #2

Sorry for the numbering. The second #1 should be #2, and the #2 should be #3.

September 6, 2014 9:38 a.m.

ginko2580 says... #3

oops, I was looking through cards and you are right GlistenerAgent there was no mention of lifegain............ it's 10am and I work night shifts so I have been up all night......... for some reason my mind was thinking biomancer was like Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and when ever a creature enter's gain life and not the second part of "this creature is a mutant in addition to other types".... wow!!!??? good night bed time.

But Master Biomancer trigger will and must happen before Oath of the Ancient Wood trigger? that I figured was my choice for timing. as they both state when this creature or whenever a creature ETB... and I thought the "whenever" ment that I could chose before the biomancer?

but ya, it is complicated and +1/+1's counters flying around confusing me, that's why I added crap and "what if's" . (lifegain and what if trostani was here to add into this). I started to write it and got major confusion on the brain and card additions to my deck.

oh ya both the Fated Centaur Tokens and the 4 Insect tokens from the Queen will all or both enter at same time. only able to cause 1 Renegade Evolve trigger.

so sorry, and holy confusion... good night.

September 6, 2014 10:56 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #4

Master Biomancer doesn't have any triggered abilities, and doesn't use any of the words "when/whenever/at" to indicate a triggered ability. His ability is a replacement effect ("as/with/instead/prevent/etc." in the text), and it modifies how a creature enters the battlefield. It will always be applied before ETB triggers can trigger.

September 6, 2014 12:24 p.m.

GlistenerAgent says... Accepted answer #5

Each of the centaurs will trigger the evolve ability if they are larger than the Krasis. Similarly, the four insects will ALL trigger evolve, but the Krasis will only evolve until it is larger than the tokens. In this case, the tokens enter as 4/4s, so the Krasis would evolve to 4/5 then stop because the evolve ability checks its conditions (greater power or toughness) on resolution as well.

Please select an answer as correct so this thread can be taken off the active queue.

September 6, 2014 12:46 p.m.

This discussion has been closed