GravePact, Scions and Ulamog on the stack?
Asked by freshdemon 5 years ago
I have a Grave Pact in play and some Eldrazi Scions
I cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre by sacrificing some Scions.
I know that the Grave Pact triggers are above Ulamog, but what about his cast trigger?
freshdemon says... #2
Can't you sacrifice the Scions with mana source speed?
How about another ability that would trigger when I pay the cost for Ulamog. My bad, if this example isn't actually highlighting my question.
Like Chronic Flooding
May 19, 2018 5 p.m.
freshdemon says... #3
...OR if Ulamog had somehow got :As an additional cost sacrifice a creature
May 19, 2018 5:03 p.m.
DankStompy says... #4
theres no such thing as "mana source speed". you can sacrifice the scions at "instant speed", but that doesnt change the fact that Ulamog does not have flash. ulamog is sorcery speed, which means the stack must be empty.
with Chronic Flooding, the situation is exactly the same. the enchanted land is tapped for mana, which triggers the ability. that ability must resolve before ulamog can be cast.
May 19, 2018 5:05 p.m.
freshdemon says... #5
Rule605.3a
A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
May 19, 2018 5:16 p.m.
freshdemon says... #6
So I can activate mana abilities as casting the spell, or is this rule wrong?
May 19, 2018 5:18 p.m.
freshdemon says... #7
603.3b
If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities they control on the stack in any order they choose. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.
Would this rule apply?
May 19, 2018 5:21 p.m.
DankStompy says... #8
you're not understanding what we're saying dude. not trying to be mean, but i'm really not sure how i can put this any simpler. costs are paid, THEN a spell can be cast. if paying those costs triggers any abilities, those abilities are added to the stack before the spell is cast. if the spell is not instant speed, it must wait until those abilities resolve before being put on the stack. neither of the rules you posted are relevant. the first rule deals with when mana abilities can be used, which isn't relevant to your question. the 2nd rule you posted deals with multiple abilities triggering "since a player recieved priority", which is also not relevant.
May 19, 2018 5:32 p.m.
DankStompy says... #9
you seem to be under the impression that multiple abilities are triggering simultaneously, but they are not.
May 19, 2018 5:34 p.m.
freshdemon says... #10
So you say if I choose to cast a Torgaar, Famine Incarnate with Grave Pact in play, it is an automatic illegal action? Because he is not instant speed
May 19, 2018 5:43 p.m.
You go to cast Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. He moves to the stack and you go through the process of casting the spell, which includes sacrificing Eldrazi Scions to activate their mana ability. This triggers Grave Pact, but the trigger has to wait to be put on the stack. You then pay the mana and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre is considered cast, which triggers it's own ability. State based actions are then checked and triggered abilities are put onto the stack. As you control both triggers you get to put them on the stack in either order and choose targets. Note that if you put Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre on the bottom of the stack targeting a creature, when Grave Pact's trigger resolves they could choose to sacrifice the targeted creature, so you probably want to put Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre's ability on top of the stack.
You can also do this as DankStompy and cdkime are erroneously insisting you must, if you want your opponents to sacrifice their creatures before they know what you're going to cast. You are entirely correct in your understanding that you can sacrifice the eldrazi scions as part of the casting of Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.
May 19, 2018 5:49 p.m.
DankStompy says... #12
no dude it is not an illegal action at all. i'm not sure why you would think that.
May 19, 2018 5:52 p.m.
freshdemon says... #13
Thank you Neotrup
I was already worried, that I just can't explain what I wanted to do.
May 20, 2018 2:12 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #14
Neotrup is correct. Critical to understanding their answer is that it matters what you do specifically when casting Ulamog because you have a choice in the matter.
Scenario 1: Grave Pact triggers resolve before Ulamog's is cast, and thus before Ulamog's cast trigger goes on to the stack
- As you alluded to earlier, mana abilities (formally mana sources) are special in MTG in that they do not use the stack and do not offer a chance to respond. In that, at least, they are "faster" than instant speed
- You sacrifice your Eldrazi tokens, putting mana in to your mana pool and Grave Pact triggers on the stack
- You must now wait for those triggers to resolve to cast Ulamog
- Once the stack is empty you may cast Ulamog, triggering his cast triggered ability, putting it on the stack on top of Ulamog
The advantage here is that you don't need to reveal you're casting Ulamog until you've seen what creatures your opponents are sacrificing. You might want to do this if your opponent has a creature such as Elgaud Shieldmate granting your real target hexproof.
Scenario 2: Grave Pact triggers hit the stack at the same time as Ulamog's cast trigger, and you order them the way you like
- This requires that you announce first that you're casting Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
- As part of the action of casting the spell, you activate the mana abilities of your Eldrazi tokens, triggering Grave Pact
- Triggers do not go on the stack until a player gets priority
- Priority will not return to you until the process of casting the spell is complete
- When priority has returned to you, you now have X Grave Pact triggers and 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre cast trigger waiting to go on to the stack with Ulamog itself at the bottom of the stack
- You control all of those triggers, you order them how you like
This method requires a more robust understanding of the rules governing the casting of spells than above. The principle is that you don't need to add all necessary mana to your mana pool then announce the spell, you can activate mana abilities as part of the process itself. See below for rules.
This is valuable if your opponent has a target like Tajuru Preserver that must be destroyed before Grave Pact can affect them.
116.5 Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event, then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack. ... Then the player who would have received priority does so.
601.2 To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. ...
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
603.2 Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
603.3 Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. ...
601.2i Once the steps described in 601.2a–h are completed, effects that modify the characteristics of the spell as it’s cast are applied, then the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell’s controller had priority before casting it, they get priority.
May 20, 2018 2:30 a.m.
freshdemon says... #15
Thank you FancyTuesday
Yeah, I knew that I could pay in the process of casting. Scenario 1 was never what I wanted to know, I knew that much. I thought 'I cast Ulamog by sacrificing some Scions' would be clear enough. Inasmuch as I didn't say I activate their mana abilities and then wait to cast Ulamog with the mana in the mana pool. I guess I could have been more precise.
Caerwyn says... #1
Grave Pact will trigger when the scions are sacrificed, which is done prior to Ulamog being cast. Because of this, you cannot cast Ulamog until after Grave Pact triggers, as there will be items on the stack.
Here is how it looks:
Sacrifice scions, gain mana, put Grave Pact on the stack.
You cannot cast Ulamog at instant speed, so you have to let Grave Pact triggers resolve.
You then can cast Ulamog, placing him on the stack.
His cast ability goes on the stack, and thus will resolve before Ulamog does.
May 19, 2018 4:14 p.m.