Firesong and Sunspeaker + spiritualize
Asked by Homelessguy 5 years ago
Last 3 weeks me and my friends have been fighting over this.
Hey look I found this rule that proves that it totally works.
Well I found the statement from a judge saying that it does not.
Here's a tweet from this level 2 judge that says it does because of this reason here!
So help me out here.Does this work?Does it not work?
Homelessguy says... #2
ThanksIt was starting to get heated in our group chat!
April 21, 2018 11:40 p.m.
Homelessguy says... #3
Thanks, it was getting to be heated in our group chat!( Punctuation is important)
April 21, 2018 11:41 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
In the future, please link all cards in your question. It makes it much easier for us to understand what's going on if we can see the cards involved. You can link cards by using double square brackets:
[[Island]]
Island
April 21, 2018 11:55 p.m.
griffstick says... #5
Well the spells have lifelink the spells don't cause the creature to gain you life. So that is an easy no
April 22, 2018 11:25 a.m.
I know this is an old thread, but how is this not a loop?
- You Spiritualize Firesong
- Firesong attacks and deals combat damage (and lives, of course)
- Spiritualize says "that creature dealt damage, you gain some life."
- Firesong says "that white sorcery gained you some life, I deal 3 damage."
- Repeat steps 3 and 4.
I think the only way this doesn't work is if Spiritualize is not considered gaining you life, which seems wrong. Even if Spiritualize creates a delayed trigger, the spell is still the source.
August 17, 2018 2:17 p.m.
griffstick says... #7
I know it's confusing. But does Chandra's Ignition deal damage? Nope.
Does Spiritualize gain you life? Nope.
Both spells just give the creature an ability for only a one shot effect. And thats the creature doing the effect. Not the spell. Firesong looks for spells doing damage and life gain. If a creature does the damage or life gain then it doesn't trigger firesong.
August 17, 2018 6:11 p.m.
If the ruling is that Spiritualize doesn't gain life, that is the rule. It just seems unintuitive. Chandra's Ignition clearly says the creature deals the damage. Spiritualize does not say the creature is the source of the life. Oh well I guess, it is what it is.
August 22, 2018 1:05 p.m.
jshuttera - I don't think this has been explained very well on this thread, and, while this is an old thread, I wanted to help you understand since you were confused.
Spiritualize does not give the creature an ability. Rather, Spiritualize create a delayed trigger that activates if the targeted creature deals damage.
Per rule 603.7d, the source of that delayed trigger is Spiritualize, not the creature. Specifically:
_ If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved._
Thant makes it seem like it should work, correct?
Not exactly. A delayed trigger goes on the stack as its own entity (603.3: Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority.).
While Spiritualize might be the source of the trigger, it is the delayed trigger that causes the gain of life, not Spiritualize itself.
This is specifically stated in the Gatherer rulings for Firesong and Sunspeaker: Firesong and Sunspeaker’s last ability doesn’t trigger if a triggered ability of a white instant or sorcery spell or card causes you to gain life, such as the triggered ability of Renewed Faith when it’s cycled.
August 22, 2018 1:23 p.m.
griffstick says... #10
I think it's an old wording too. Spiritualize should say "until the end of turn target creature has "whenever this creature deals damage gain that much life.""
August 22, 2018 11:52 p.m.
griffstick - that is not how it works. The creature does not receive an ability, the spell is just creating a delayed trigger. Both why it is not the creature and why it still does not trigger Firesong is set forth in my previous post.
August 23, 2018 12:12 a.m.
griffstick says... #12
Does this mean that when the creature deals damage for the first time after this spell resolves, you will gain life. but not the second time? Be cause the spell is a one time thing?
August 23, 2018 7:08 a.m.
That is not true. The spell is a one time thing - the formation of the replacement act.
However, there are no limits to the number of times the triggered replacement ability can go off.
Suns_Champion says... Accepted answer #1
It doesn't work :(
Long story short, it's a delayed triggered ability that causes the life gain, not a spell being cast, which is what F&S care about.
You can still make a good Firesong and Sunspeaker deck without it though :)
April 21, 2018 11:36 p.m.