Eldrazi and Infinite Mill EDH Ruling
Asked by MayhemZA 6 years ago
So my group plays casual EDH and one of the discussions that has come up is that if one or more players have a Eldrazi in their deck and the opposing player mills them infinitely... example: Altar of the brood, Animar, Soul of Elements and Ancestral Statue vs one or more Eldrazi (Kozilik for example).
They argue that eventually in this loop you will be left with just these Eldrazi as your last cards and effectively they make you draw cards until you lose. I have managed to find many rulings on this stating that this would not be considered legal as it is a uncertain victory and needs to be played out and in general would be seen a time wasting in competitive matching and in other formats. What they suggest as a solution is to select a reasonable number instances of mill and play that out. If nothing happens move on and find another way to win or draw into removal. It largely reduces the time and still gives them that 1/99 chance of getting that card or do we simply lose? Bare in mind that EDH consists of a 100 card deck if you aren't running some way of dealing with the Eldrazi in a deck that uses infinite mill combos as a win con then you are already doing something wrong. We follow rulings when making these decisions, that way it keeps it fair and clean, but so far there is little rulings on this for EDH. Most important is the interaction is it legal or should we just remove all our Eldrazi and use something else?
Would appreciate any assistance in this!
Please link all relevant cards: Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ancestral Statue, Altar of the Brood
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking about here... it certainly needs to be played out, not just because there's a lot of instant speed graveyard removal, but also because you could Stifle the triggered ability that has you shuffle the respective card back into your library.
Also, keep in mind that EDH isn't a competitive format, so things like time limits and slow play penalties aren't a concern outside of the comfort of the players of going through the motions. That said, whenever you do have the possibility for an infinite loop, you may suggest a shortcut that executes it a certain amount of times - this is part of the official rules and doesn't require any kind of house ruling", which is what I understand you'd like to do here. Of course, you won't be able to name a certain amount in which you'll reach the desired result of just having that one Eldrazi in the graveyard, so your infinite loop really ends up being a game stall.
Maybe you can make some sense from my rambling, and maybe you want to provide some more info :)
May 15, 2017 6:36 p.m.
Because the loop involves actions occuring at unknown times, the best you could realistically do is have them mill 1 card at a time, then break the loop to let them shuffle, and repeat. Realistically this means someone will get bored and quit before the library is down to 1 card without them shuffling, and if your building a mill EDH deck you should have a contingency for eldrazi titans anyways. Black is recommended as it has options like Leyline of the Void and Nihil Spellbomb, but in Animar's colors you could use Trickbind, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, or even Extract.
May 15, 2017 7:40 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #4
When you shortcut through a loop of actions, you do it by choosing a specific finite number of iterations. The only way you're allowed to skip to a certain end-state is if you know for a fact that a finite number of iterations will get you there (even if the math is too complicated to come up with the exact number). In your example, mathematically, there's no guarantee you'll ever reach the given end-state, no matter how many times the actions are repeated. You can't shortcut through it that way. Once the mill player realizes their current line of play isn't going to work, they need to stop the loop and try something else.
Though the Magic Tournament Rules and Infraction Procedure Guide don't apply to a casual game of Magic, I personally think it's a good policy to use them as a reference for certain things you should and shouldn't do during a game. The rules in the MTR and IPG regarding Slow Play are in place to help make sure games can be played out at a reasonable pace and no one has to sit there being bored out of their mind while their opponent wastes a bunch of time accomplishing nothing.
May 15, 2017 9:09 p.m.
Thanks for the answers so far and as requested here are the cards I used as a example: ,
and
for the infinite mill.
for the anti-mill.
I believe I have my answer, but if anyone would like to add something please do. :)
Once again thank you!
colton815 says... #1
what are you even talking about? be specific as to which eldrazi you mean, because "eldrazi" is nothing more than a creature type, and there are no graveyard related rules that apply to "all" eldrazi. if an eldrazi is milled, its milled. it goes from the library to the grave, and thats it. now if you're talking about Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, your opponent can infinite mill you all they want, but every time they hit the emmy, you'll simply shuffle your entire graveyard back into the library and their mill is pointless.
May 15, 2017 6:24 p.m.