Dramatic Scepter loops and the stack
Asked by BolasFucks 5 years ago
So I am not sure if I won my EDH game last night or not. I began an infinite mana/untap loop with Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter and a Sol Ring and Fellwar Stone in play. The deck was Azami, Lady of Scrolls who was in play with a few other wizards and the plan was to continue using her effect with the infinite untaps to draw into a Laboratory Maniac win. All of my lands are tapped at this point.
One of my opponents had an untapped Nevinyrral's Disk out and another had Kambal, Consul of Allocation out. This means one of my opponents had an instant speed board wipe ready to go and another had a creature that was draining me of 2 life per Dramatic Scepter activation.
After a few activations, the opponent with Disk decided to activate it to stop me from winning. (It was during this quick convo that I realized I was killing myself due to Kambal as well).
In response to the Disk trigger, I activated Dramatic Scepter several more times, and once I had enough blue mana, cast an overloaded Cyclonic Rift to remove all opponents permanents (namely Kambal), then continued activating Scepter until I drew into Lab Man, played him, and drew to win.
Just writing this I realize that I would not have been able to play Lab Man before the Disk trigger resolved as it cannot be played at instant speed. However I believe I could have kept the Scepter loop going until I had one card left and enough mana to cast Lab Man, recast Azami, and tap both via Azami's activated ability to win after all permanents were destroyed. Is this correct?
Also, was I correct in being able to respond to things on the stack by continuing the loop?
Should I have been able to play the Rift when I did?
If nobody else had a response to Rift, was I allowed to keep the loop going after it resolved, or would something new have to be placed on the stack in order for me to respond by continuing my Scepter activations?
Sorry for the convoluted description. This whole process was much easier while goldfishing with no interaction -___-
BolasFucks says... #2
Neotrup He was a newer player and saw that I was going to win so figured why not just activate it. Reading back the Disk was actually pretty irrelevant to the situation.
So once I had enough mana from Scepter, I would be able to cast the overloaded Rift, let it resolve to deal with Kambal, then once priority passed back to me continue to Scepter until I was set up (Lab Man in hand and no cards in library with a way to draw)?
Then I would just have to let everything resolve including the Disk activation (even though it would be gone from the battlefield now) before casting Lab Man and drawing to win?
July 24, 2018 5:12 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
Yes, if he activated Disk while scepter was untapped, that is what would happen. If he activated disk with Dramatic Reversal or the Isochron Scepter activation on the stack then your stuff would have been destroyed before you untapped it.
As a matter of fact, unless you were trying to resolve another spell or trying to advance the phase mid-combo for some reason, the only time he would have priority to do anything would have been with one or the other on the stack.
July 24, 2018 5:48 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Sorry, thought about it while i was in the shower. I guess he could activate Disk in response to Azami's ability too. I'm used to dramatic scepter just being infinite mana.
July 24, 2018 6:04 p.m.
BolasFucks says... #5
Gidgetimer even if Disk was activated with Dramatic Reversal(s) (via Scepter activations) on the stack, wouldn't I just be able to continue responding with further activations anyway?
Obviously if I couldn't win at instant speed, it was going to have to resolve eventually, but I thought I would be able to continue the loop until I drew my deck and was set up for the Lab Man play at sorcery speed.
So in what situation would the Disk trigger resolve and destroy my things before I was set up like that?
July 25, 2018 1:28 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
How Are you proposing to activate scepter when it was tapped to put reversal on the stack and it hasn't yet been untapped by reversal resolving? Also in dramatic scepter there is only ever one reversal on the stack from the scepter on the stack unless you untap the scepter via some other method so there is no need for the parenthetical S, as multiple instances are not a normal case.
July 25, 2018 5:22 p.m.
As Gidgetimer is saying, here's how it would look:
You activate the Scepter, putting Dramatic Reversal on the stack. Scepter is tapped. They activate the Disk, putting that on the stack above Reversal. Scepter is still tapped. You can't respond by activating the Scepter, since it's still tapped. Disk resolves, destroying your Scepter and mana rocks. Reversal resolves, untapping whatever the Disk didn't somehow hit. You no longer have a Scepter to activate.
So really, the person who activated the Disk should have activated it while the Scepter was tapped, in which case you wouldn't be able to respond with the Scepter before the Disk destroyed it, unless you had some other means to untap it without the Reversal.
July 25, 2018 6:29 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #8
Small correction: you activate scepter and the scepter activation goes on the stack. Once the activation resolves it is only then that Reversal is copied and put on the stack.
The scepter is tapped the entire time until Reversal resolves. If you are only making mana then there is literally no point at which an opponent has priority and the scepter is untapped. With Azami, as long as you are resolving each draw before untapping everything and not just piling them up to be resolved after making infinite mana, one out of every three rounds of priority the scepter is untapped. If you are piling up Azami activations then we are back to opponents never having priority with an untapped scepter.
It is dangerous to pile up the card draw after the infinite mana because of this. Then again it is also a dick move to take advantage of a new player's inexperience to screw them out of a game. (Which I'm not trying to say you did.) The stack is a bit confusing and so at a casual game or even regular REL I will tell anyone who tries to respond when the optimal time to screw me over is. I'm not going to play worse, so I help others play better.
July 25, 2018 7 p.m.
BolasFucks says... #10
Thank you all, I will pass this on to my playgroup. We've been curious about how it should have played out. The part about activating Disk while Scepter is tapped makes perfect sense. This was the first time I used Scepter as the win con in Azami. Mind Over Matter was much easier and cleaner, though certainly less powerful.
Neotrup says... #1
I'm confused, why was Nevinyrral's Disk activated while Isochron Scepter was untapped? If it was, yes, you could float mana, cast Cyclonic Rift, then proceed to float an arbitrary amount of blue and draw as many cards as you want. Realistically your opponent would activate Nevinyrral's Disk while Isochron Scepter is tapped to prevent such responses though.
July 24, 2018 4:26 p.m.