Does Chronozoa create Monster Mash copies via Grusilda?

Asked by Ansem717 1 week ago

Grusilda, Monster Masher can grab two creatures from graveyards and combine them. Since there aren't a whole lot of defined rules for this, I wanted to ask the hivemind.

If I combine a Chronozoa and an Invisible Stalker, for example, and the combined creature dies (from removing the last Vanishing counter), I'm sure it splits back into the two individual cards -- What is the result of Chronozoa's ability in this situation?

Neotrup says... #1

You create two tokens that are copies of the creature, so a 4/4 hexproof with vanishing 3 that can't be blocked. I don't know if a copy counts a a combined, I wouldn't think it would have menace, but you'd have to check with Mark Rosewater.

December 3, 2017 11:32 p.m.

Izu_Korasu says... #2

I believe that because the creatures are only combined on the battlefield, they would be two separate creatures by time the Chronozoa trigger resolves making two copies of the stock Chronozoa not the monster mashed version.

December 3, 2017 11:38 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #3

It depends on what Layer combining works in. I think it's safe to assume that it probably has to work in "Layer 0" (not the official name, but that's basically what it is), the printed characteristics of the cards themselves. This means the copiable characteristics of the combined creature will be its total characteristics, and that's what a copy effect will copy.

December 4, 2017 12:21 a.m.

Ansem717 says... #4

Thanks all for the answers! I'm pretty sure the token is not a combined creature, since it's just a token of this new mash-up.

December 4, 2017 1:14 a.m.

Monomanamaniac says... #5

This one really looks like it could go either way, but I think the tokens would be complete copies of the combined creature, but not combined themselves. Initially I was thinking they would just be chronozoa, but since they are essentially one creature they don't split till after they die and are in the graveyard properly. The token would share their total power/toughness and abilities. I like this question because I'm a huge fan of chromazoa

December 4, 2017 7:04 p.m.

Izu_Korasu says... #6

Monomanamaniac/Ansem717 firstly, monster masher doesnt make tokens, or copies, it takes two physical cards from a graveyard.

this is similar to both meld and (unstable's mechanic) augment, they are combined only while on the battlefield.

in both keyword cases the two paired creatures (forming one permanent ex.meld, augment) leave the battlefield, they become their normal, front/stock versions.

another example if you combined Murderous Redcap and Geralf's Messenger together, when they hit the graveyard, redcap would persist back, and messenger would undie because they seperate before the dies trigger goes on the stack (or atleast appears to be the general consensus that ive seen)

December 5, 2017 2:09 a.m.

Neotrup says... #7

If you combined Murderous Redcap and Geralf's Messenger you'd have a single creature with both undying and persist. We can do this in black border by having Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Cauldron of Souls, and Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. In the black border world, both abilities would trigger, but the first one to resolve would return both cards, Bruna, the Fading Light and Gisela, the Broken Blade to the battlefield with either a +1/+1 counter or a -1/-1 counter on each of them (same type of counter), with the second trigger doing nothing as neither card was there for it to return. Why would the silver border case of a mashed Murderous Redcap and Geralf's Messenger work differently with the triggers only returning one each?

December 5, 2017 11:25 a.m.

Monomanamaniac says... #8

I wasn't saying the combined creature was a token, I was referring to the token created by chronozoa's effect. I made my speculation based on the fact that it says you combine them into one creature, so when the combined creature dies, it's not chronozoa's effect that is on the board, it's the effect of an entirely new creature born of combining two, and when they die, it should create a token that is exactly like it.

December 5, 2017 1:07 p.m.

Ansem717 says... #9

I've found what Neotrup has found about Meld cards being "seen" from somewhere after they leave the battlefield. If a Melded creature was exiled under Oblivion Ring, for example, and the O-Ring leaves play, both halves would come back separately. If a Melded creature had undying, both halves would come back separately, with a +1/+1 counter.

December 5, 2017 1:17 p.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #10

@Izu_Korasu: A "dies" ability is a type of leaves-the-battlefield ability, and LTB abilities use information from the last moment an object was on the battlefield to determine if and how they trigger. In your Persist/Undying example that means it works out like Neotrup explained with the known results we currently have for Meld cards.

December 5, 2017 1:23 p.m.

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