Destroying Laboratory Manic during Draw Step?
Asked by matty_boy1278 7 years ago
So, I was in a long 5-player commander game using a graveyard deck, and had Laboratory Maniac on the field as well as Altar of Dementia with a decent number of big creatures and tokens on the field. I sacked everything but Laboratory Maniac on the player's turn before mine, targeting myself, which was more than enough to mill me out and he ended the turn. My turn comes, uptap/upkeep/draw, I announce that I cannot draw, and Laboratory Maniac's ability goes off, so I would win instead of lose. One of the other player's then plays Terminate on Laboratory Maniac. I know you can cast during upkeep, but upkeep has ended and is now draw step, and the ability goes off on draw step, I lose/I win before entering main phase, so would that even work?
metalmagic says... #2
So basically if this were a tournament setting, and it were made perfectly clear (and the judge agrees based on info s/he's given), you would win, and this is why. Before anyone receives priority in the Draw Step, the first thing that happens is the active player (you, in this case) draws their one card for the turn as a Turn-Based Action. State-based actions are then checked, then you receive priority. Winning/losing/drawing are state-based actions. Laboratory Maniac's ability is a replacement effect which modifies how the game deals with state-based actions. Turn- and state-based actions do NOT use the stack, so after you move to your draw step there is never a time which someone can kill your Lab Maniac before you win. The upkeep would be the last possible chance to do so.
If you're trying to super strict on the rules in your Commander games - which is a good habit if you do or plan on doing large tournaments in any format - you are definitely the clear winner. It's super late/early now, so I apologize if this isn't the clearest answer, but I will definitely clarify anything if needed. I hope this helps!
November 6, 2016 5:49 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #3
Both of the above answers are correct. Really, the outcome of this situation depends on whether you adequately notified the other players when you moved from upkeep to draw.
If you didn't announce that you were ending your upkeep and moving to draw, your opponent has every right to request that the game be backed up so that he or she can take an action in your upkeep.
However, if you did announce the transition and your opponent simply waited until your draw step to do anything, you'll win the game before anyone can respond in that step.
November 6, 2016 9:58 a.m.
Really this is kind of your fault, because it's your responsibility to progress through the phases in your turn in an orderly fashion.
What happened here is that when it stopped being the end step of your opponent's turn, after all of your Altar activations had resolved and each player passed priority (this is where I would have cast Terminate btw, while your mana's tapped and you can't counter it), and it passed to your turn and you said, "I cannot draw, Laboratory Maniac causes me to win the game," you were proposing a shortcut where the game was skipping straight to your draw step. Whenever a player proposes a shortcut, the other players get a chance to stop that shortcut at any time along the way that they want to perform an action, which includes during your upkeep to cast Terminate.
The ONLY way that you would have won in this case would be if you had declared that it was your upkeep, declared that you passed priority and asked if anyone else would like to cast a spell or activate an ability, had each of your opponents indicate that they did not, and then you moved to your draw step. Anything else wouldn't be clear enough to say that your opponents had gotten every opportunity to cast spells at the times they were able to.
November 6, 2016 12:58 p.m.
matty_boy1278 says... #5
Thanks for all the replies! You all made pretty valid points in your answers that, in this case which is a win or lose situation, announcement of the steps or at least asking for a response during upkeep would be key. I actually don't remember at this point it they asked to back up to the upkeep step or not, I just took my turn as I do, announced drawing, and so on. But I should have announced upkeep as well, to give someone of an opportunity, so I will take the loss either way. Next time I will just pay closer attention to the steps. Thanks for all of your help everyone!
November 7, 2016 2:32 a.m.
matty_boy1278 says... #6
@sonnet666 I didn't jump straight to my draw step in that sense, I still went through the untap step, a basically non-existant upkeep step, then announced drawing. But again, I'll just take the loss this time, and next time it happens, I'll just be clear to ask of when they are playing the card in response to. Thanks again for all the clarification!
GearNoir says... #1
There is an Upkeep Step before the Draw Step during which spells can be cast.
People usually just don't think about it since Untap/Upkeep/Draw steps all flow along seamlessly for the most part.
I suppose they could request that you stop your draw step?
November 6, 2016 2:02 a.m.