Destroying Laboratory Manic during Draw Step?
Asked by matty_boy1278 7 years ago
So, I was in a long 5-player game using a graveyard deck, and had Laboratory Maniac on the field as well as Altar of Dementia with a decent number of big creatures and tokens on the field. I sacked everything but Laboratory Maniac on the player's turn before mine, targeting myself, which was more than enough to mill me out and he ended the turn. My turn comes, uptap/upkeep/draw, I announce that I cannot draw, and Laboratory Maniac's ability goes off, so I would win instead of lose. One of the other player's then plays Terminate on Laboratory Maniac. I know you can cast during upkeep, but upkeep has ended and is now draw step, and the ability goes off on draw step, I lose/I win before entering main phase, so would that even work?
Sorry, wasn't sure where to post this, so if I need to move it, let me know!
However, for completion's sake, it should also be noted that you ARE allowed to cast spells and activate abilities during the draw step, after the card is drawn, before main phase. In this instance, however, the game would be over since Lab Maniac's replacement effect occurred.
November 6, 2016 4:34 a.m.
Matt_The_OGRE says... #3
Also, next time use a Chromatic Sphere or one of the egg cycle (Darkwater Egg) for the instant win with labman. This works because the draw is part of the mana ability and therefore does not use the stack, so it can't be responded to.
November 6, 2016 4:40 a.m.
The opponent must have an opportunity to cast spells during your upkeep, you can not rush through this to not allow it. If you know you are going to win during draw step, you should make sure your opponents know you are moving to the draw step.
For instance, you could say I untap, I don't do anything during my upkeep, any response? I know this is unusual, but if you use a shortcut of assuming they are not doing anything, they can make you back up to the point so they can.
You could also ask the player when are you casting that. If they say in response to the draw, it's too late as you win before anyone gets priority after you attempt to draw. If they say before you draw, or during your upkeep, then you need a way to put cards in your library before you attempt to draw, or you will lose.
November 6, 2016 8:40 a.m.
Coinman1863 says... #5
In short, he acted too late, if he terminated in upkeep it would work. You cannot respond to drawing cards in the draw step specifically, however you can do stuff at the end of the draw step, like Vendilion Clique.
So you did end up winning. Also Lab Man is not a trigger, it's a replacement effect for a state based action, like dredge when drawing a card.
November 6, 2016 12:50 p.m.
First of all: Laboratory Maniac has a replacement effect, which doesn't use the stack, but modifies the original event, which in this case is a turn-based action that doesn't use the stack. The last opportunity to destroy the Maniac before you draw your card for the turn is in your upkeep.
As pskinn01 already said - while you phrase your question including "uptap/upkeep/draw", I would tend towards you not actually announcing steps that way in the actual game, but rather untap, then proceed to draw a card and announce that you win the game due to an empty library and Laboratory Maniac. Your opponents do, however, get priority in the upkeep step, so the more likely interpretation here (maybe not for your specific game, but definitely in general) is that they meant to interrupt you and cast Terminate in your upkeep, seeing that you pass priority in your upkeep by announcing that you want to go to your draw step.
The other point to note likely doesn't affect your game, but is important in general: In a multiplayer game, instead of you winning the game, all other players in your range of influence lose the game. This means that a player outside your range of influence would not lose the game, possibly be inside your range of influence after other players lost the game due to your Laboratory Maniac, and now are able to destroy your Laboratory Maniac with their Terminate.
Even without the limited range of influence option, a player might control a Platinum Angel and not lose the game, however would want to wait for everyone other than you to do so before destroying your Maniac.
@Steaditup: You're correct, however now that you mentioned it, it should be added that only players who didn't lose the game before are still able to cast spells and abilities. A player who loses the game due to Laboratory Maniac won't be able to destroy it as their "last stand".
@Coinman1863: Drawing a card for the turn is a turn-based action, not a state-based action.
November 6, 2016 3:48 p.m.
matty_boy1278 says... #7
Thanks for all the replies! You all made pretty valid points in your answers that, in this case which is a win or lose situation, asking for a response during upkeep or of i asked when they are casting it would be key. I actually don't remember at this point it they asked to back up to the upkeep step or not, I just took my turn as I do, announced that I was drawing, and so on. More or less, I guess I should have asked what they were playing in response to, but I will take the loss either way. Next time I will pay closer attention to the steps and when responses are made to and from. Thanks for all of your help everyone!
Raging_Squiggle says... #1
It's very important to note that LabMan's ability is Not a triggered ability. It is a replacement effect which cannot be responded to. Drawing for the turn is a turn based action that happens at the beginning of the draw step, which also cannot be responded to.
The moment you successfully move into your draw step, you win. The last opportunity your opponent can stop this is the end of the upkeep step where he should have cast Terminate.
November 6, 2016 3:54 a.m.