Copying a Creature With X in its Mana Cost?
Asked by DemonDragonJ 4 years ago
If a player copies a creature that contains X in its mana cost, such as Hydroid Krasis or Nimbus Swimmer , via Riku of Two Reflections or similar card, what will the power and toughness of the token be?
DemonDragonJ says... #2
Boza, thank you very much; I have an EDH deck whose general is Riku of Two Reflections that contains Simic Sky Swallower , and now I know to not replace that creature with Hydroid Krasis .
November 4, 2019 6:41 a.m.
Asturonethoriusaline says... #3
I had this same question. I had a Werewolf deck, and another deck, where I wanted to Copy I think it was Green Sun's Zenith , where it had a X cost to tutor search a creature, where I wanted to know if I copied the X cost Green Sun Zenith, if it would get 2 Huntmaster's(if I payed 4 mana as the X cost), instead of 1 Huntmaster.
I asked the rules question here, because the commenters in the deck comments said what the person said in the ACCEPTED answer above.
They said I couldnt copy a X cost.
But 1 of the people who answered my rules question here, in this section, said I could copy a X cost, and that I would get 2 Huntmaster's with a Copied Green Sun's Zenith.
Then a OFFICIAL quote, ruling, citation, etc, one of those 702.... type of things that also said that could copy X cost.
The other card was a Fireball like direct damage spell that had a X cost. I wanted to know if I paid 10 mana into Fireball, doing 9 damage, if I copied it, would it do 9 damage again.
Again I was answered that I could, and that it would do 9 damage again.
And again the 702...type rules citation was quoted.
According to that ruling, it says that quote "The Value of the X cost is copied".
That means if pay 4 mana into green sun zenith as X cost, that copying will get you 2 4 cmc Huntmasters, and that if pay 10 into X cost of Fireball that a copied Fireball will do 10 damage, and that if OP, pays 10 mana into X cost of their Hydra, and that makes a 10/10 Hydra, that when it is copied, the copy will be a 10/10 hydra.
Again whatever is paid into the X cost is copied, according to the 702....type of rule.
I posted the ruling on my decks, because of the disagreement, about it.
I dont have those decks up. I dont remember the rules ruling citation numeral reference.
So I suggest that somebody find the ruling I am talking about and post it here, and that that if found, posted, and if it says what I say it says is made the accepted answer
Because the accepted answer that is currently marked as the accepted answer may be wrong.
A official ruling with a official citation, by a admin here would be very helpful.
November 7, 2019 11:07 p.m.
Asturonethoriusaline - there is a difference between copying a spell with X on the stack and copying a creature with X in its cost on the battlefield.
In general, the X is always considered to be 0. For example, if something asked for Green Sun's Zenith converted mana cost, the answer would be 1 at all times, except the stack, where it would be 1 plus whatever X is.
For that reason, copying the creature that is on the battlefield would see the X as 0 (or more accurately, not defined), and it would use this value.
Now, if Riku's ability somehow created a copy of the creature card on the stack (which currently is not an option in the game AFAIK), then X would be considered.
November 8, 2019 3:48 a.m.
And here's the relevant rules for reference (emphasis added):
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706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
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107.3f If a card in any zone other than the stack has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of {X} is treated as 0, even if the value of X is defined somewhere within its text.
The stack is the only place where X has any value other than 0 when copied.
So with Riku of Two Reflections copying Hydroid Krasis (which is copied from the battlefield), the copy's value of X will be 0 and thus it will enter with no counters and immediately die. Meanwhile Green Sun's Zenith is copied from the stack, and thus whatever value was set for X will be copied.
November 8, 2019 9:34 a.m.
Asturonethoriusaline says... #6
Thanks for the clarifications.
I hope its understandable why I was confused.
But your clarifications clears up the misunderstanding, confusion.
Thanks.
Boza says... Accepted answer #1
0/0 - what the value of X was on the stack, or the counters on the creatures are not copiable values. It is not advisible to copy these critters.
November 4, 2019 4:42 a.m.