Can Lazav, Dimir Mastermind copy Lumbering Falls?
Asked by chosenone124 7 years ago
Lazav states that "Whenever a creature card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere". Since "dies" is considered "put into the graveyard from the battlefield", an animated Lumbering Falls which dies would be copiable right?
chosenone124 says... #2
But a creature doesn't die unless it actually hits the graveyard. So when Lumbering Falls is destroyed, a creature dies (which based on the definition of dies from rule 700.4, means a creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield), but a land actually enters the graveyard.
That's super weird
March 21, 2017 10:46 p.m. Edited.
chosenone124 says... #3
What I'm confused about is that a creature doesn't die unless it enters the graveyard, but when Lumbering Falls dies, a creature doesn't enter the graveyard
March 21, 2017 10:54 p.m.
chosenone124 says... #4
So I don't have to make a similarly worded question on this issue, suppose I have a Storm Crow enchanted with Imprisoned in the Moon. My opponent kills it. Since Titania, Protector of Argoth is worded similarly to Lazav (with put into the graveyard instead of dies), I assume that I won't get a trigger right?
Similarly, if I were to enchant a Wandering Fumarole with Darksteel Mutation, and it were to die, it would trigger Titania?
This should be the last followup. Thanks for the help!
March 22, 2017 12:11 a.m. Edited.
Okay, wow, this has some miserable understanding of rules. Everything with Lazav, Dimir Mastermind is mostly correct, but the reason it doesn't care whether the card was a creature when it was on the battlefield is entirely because he looks for when a creature card goes to the graveyard. If the object going to the graveyard is not a card (because it's a token) or does not have the creature type printed on it, Lazav doesn't see it. Titania, Protector of Argoth is completely different. She looks for objects that are lands as they exist on the battlefield that go to the graveyard. If there's a Life and Limb in play and a saproling token dies, she'll see that and create an elemental. If a planeswalker enchanted with Imprisoned in the Moon is destroyed, she'll see it and create an elemental. If a Wandering Fumarole enchanted with Darksteel Mutation is sent to the graveyard, Titania will not create a token, because it was not a land. Her ability functions identically to "dies" because "dies" simply means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."
700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."
March 22, 2017 1:36 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #6
And my understanding of the mechanics flip off the diving board again
March 22, 2017 1:53 a.m.
They aren't different, that's my point. Titania, Protector of Argoth's second ability says:
"Whenever a land you control is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, create a 5/3 green Elemental creature token."
Meaning it functions identically to dies triggers, as I said.
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind's ability is very different, and as such functions very differently, which is the consciousness this thread came to, but for two very important reasons, only one of which I meantioned. It reads:
Whenever a creature card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, you may have Lazav, Dimir Mastermind become a copy of that card, except its name is still Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, it's legendary in addition to its other types, and it gains hexproof and this ability.
The first distinction is that it looks for a creature card, not a creature. This means it's looking at the characteristics of a card, not the characteristics of a permanent that existed on the battlefield. The second distinction is that it's from anywhere, not from the battlefield. Abilities that trigger off a permanent leaving the battlefield are treated differently from other zone changing triggers, however abilities that trigger off an object going to a specific zone from anywhere are treated as the general case, even if they are leaving the battlefield:
603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.
March 22, 2017 2:01 a.m.
That is, "dies" and "put into a graveyard from the battlefield" aren't different, the abilities of Titania, Protector of Argoth and Lazav, Dimir Mastermind are massively different, because the text you quoted came from the former, but not the latter.
March 22, 2017 2:03 a.m.
chosenone124 says... #9
So I think this is what Neotrup is saying. Lazav triggers when he detects a creature card entering the graveyard. Zulaport Cutthroat triggers when he detects a creature permanent is put into the graveyard from play.
The distinction is that a card and a permanent are two different things. A Wandering Fumarole enchanted with Darksteel Mutation is still a land card but the permanent on the battlefield is a 0/1 insect creature.
This goes back to the idea that we don't cast creatures, we use the card a summoning medium to summon a being from the multiverse. There is the card, which calls forth the creature, and there is the creature itself which sits on top of the card.
When my Wandering Fumarole insect dies, two things are put into the graveyard. The card behind it, the land card Wandering Fumarole, is put into the graveyard. The 0/1 insect creature sitting on top of it is put into the graveyard. Permanents which enter the graveyard disappear instantly.
Correct me if I'm wrong Neotrup
March 22, 2017 2:04 a.m. Edited.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind's ability will only trigger if two things are true:
It's a non-token card.
It has the type Creature printed on the card.
If the permanent That's dying gained the type creature, perhaps because Wandering Fumarole died, but isn't a creature card, his ability will not trigger.
Zulaport Cutthroat's ability only cares that the permanent dying is a creature, not a creature card. This is a significant difference because cards that gained the type creature will trigger Zulaport Cutthroat's ability.
Titania, Protector of Argoth's ability will not trigger off of Wandering Fumarole dying while enchanted with Darksteel Mutation. This is because Darksteel Mutation removes all other card types from the permanent it's enchanting. It won't "still be a land" when it dies.
chosenone124, your final statement is misguided. Any card on the battlefield is a permanent, any card on the stack is a spell, and any card anywhere else is just a card (including the graveyard). When Fumarole dies, the only two things put into the graveyard is the Fumarole itself, and the enchantment Darksteel Mutation. Permanents don't disappear when they enter the graveyard, they simply are now referred to as cards.
March 22, 2017 12:19 p.m.
Daedalus19876 says... #11
As far as I know, Raging_Squiggle is correct.
Though someone earlier said that tokens never die. This is false, though it is true that tokens dying do not trigger Lazav (because they're merely creatures, not creature cards).
March 22, 2017 12:27 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... Accepted answer #12
To be clear: the reasons these interactions are different is because of Rule 603.6c, quoted in Neotrup's post.
The point is that "leaves the battlefield" abilities (of which "dies"/"graveyard from battlefield" are a special type) trigger from the battlefield and use information about the game state from the last moment the object was actually on the battlefield to determine if and how they trigger. "Graveyard from anywhere" abilities are just a normal zone-change ability, and they use information about the game state from right after the object changed zones.
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind will only trigger if an actual creature card goes to the graveyard. Titania, Protector of Argoth will trigger if a Storm Crow enchanted with Imprisoned in the Moon dies (because it was a land right before it left the battlefield), but not if an animated Wandering Fumarole enchanted with Darksteel Mutation dies (because it wasn't a land right before it left the battlefield).
chosenone124 says... #1
So a quick question on terminology: When an animated Lumbering Falls "dies" does a creature die or does a land die? (for the purpose of cards like Zulaport Cutthroat)
March 21, 2017 10:23 p.m. Edited.