Can Goblin Dark-Dwellers cast a Wheel of Fate in my graveyard for free?
Asked by MsSysbit 7 years ago
The converted mana cost is 0 ie 3 or less. Can I just throw out the wheel again without waiting the 4 turns? Or can I but only then have to re-suspend it? Any help would be appreciated!
Raging_Squiggle says... #2
Because it has no mana cost, there is no way you can normally cast such a spell. Compare this card to Pact of Negation which has a 
mana cost. It can be cast because it has a mana cost. This is why Wheel of Fate has a suspend ability as a method of casting the spell.
Suspend's alternate cost allows you to "cast it without paying its mana cost". this is an alternate cost. Along with those of Fist of Suns, Mind's Desire, Omniscience, Dream Halls, etc.
An alternate cost replaces the regular casting method and cost of the card, allowing you to get around the lack of a mana cost.
August 27, 2016 1:26 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #3
I realize I didn't actually answer your question.
202.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.
Because The Goblin looks for a card with CMC less than 3, Wheel of Fate is a legal target.
If he instead looked for a card with a mana cost less than 3, Wheel of Fate wouldn't be a legal target because it's mana cost is non-existent, however it has a CMC of 0.
August 27, 2016 1:33 a.m.
Top two rulings from the Wheel of Fate page at the official Wizard's MTG site...
10/15/2006 This has no mana cost, which means it cant normally be cast as a spell. You could, however, cast it via some alternate means, like with Fist of Suns or Minds Desire.
10/15/2006 This has no mana cost, which means it cant be cast with the Replicate ability of Djinn Illuminatus or by somehow giving it Flashback.
Based on these rulings Wheel of Fate has no casting cost at all. There is no converted mana cost since there is no casting cost at all.
So the answer to the question is no you can't used Goblin Dark Dwellers to cast Wheel of Fate.
August 27, 2016 1:45 a.m.
@mtgoldie: That's incorrect - the CMC of a card with no mana cost is 0, by rule 202.3a quoted earlier in this thread.
Mind's Desire from the Gatherer ruling you quoted actually has the very same functionality as the Dwellers.
August 27, 2016 5:46 a.m.
So it DOES work as I thought so BlueScope? Or no? I was just curious as this came up in a game of EDH I was playing.
August 27, 2016 1:26 p.m.
@MsSysbit: Yes, you can cast Wheel of Fate with Goblin Dark-Dweller's ETB ability, as previously explained by acbooster and Raging_Squiggle.
You cannot re-suspend it.
August 27, 2016 1:41 p.m.
Thanx everyone! EDH brings up such weird interactions and I honestly couldn't say how it woudld go. Thanx so much!
August 27, 2016 1:50 p.m.
BlueScope You are incorrect. Wizards of the Coast SPECIFICALLY STATED that Wheel of Fate HAS NO CASTING COST. It's NOT 0 at all. IT HAS NO CASTING COST. You can go argue with WotC if you like since they are the ones that stated that Wheel of Fate has no casting cost. Regardless as I previously stated, no you CAN'T cast Wheel of Fate by using Goblin Dark Dwellers. So unless you can provide a WotC stated fact that contradicts what they ALREADY stated then you are wrong Bluescope.
August 27, 2016 5:45 p.m.
Oh and I will also state that it is an established rule that the cards themselves trump any and all rules. The car itself shows that it has no casting cost as well and WotC just supported and explained it. So that's TWICE now that WotC has proven you wrong Bluescope.
August 27, 2016 5:46 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #11
mtgoldie, please don't be a dick. If you think you're right, say so calmly and with evidence.
I already posted an official WOTC ruling from their own comprehensive rules that explicitly shuts down your argument. I will repost that rule for you:
202.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0. Source.
While it may have no casting cost, that does not mean it has no CMC. It's CMC is . And Goblin Dark-Dwellers looks for the CMC of the card, not the casting cost. This is why Wheel of Fate is legal to cast.
Also, since you're so confident you're right, please show me the source for your counter-argument.
August 27, 2016 5:56 p.m.
Also before trying to continue to argue with me about this see the second rulings that I posted. Here I will repeat it for you.
10/15/2006 This has no mana cost, which means it cant be cast with the Replicate ability of Djinn Illuminatus or by somehow giving it Flashback.
The refers to Djinn Illuminatus giving instants and sorcerys the replicate. Replicate states that the replicate cost is equal to its mana cost so if the casting cost of Wheel of Fate was 0 then you could us Djinn Illuminatus's ability to infinitely cast Wheel of Fate since, as a couple of people have stated it's casting cost is 0. SO since WotC has stated that you can't do this that means Wheel of Fate has no casting cost.
In the first ruling...10/15/2006 This has no mana cost, which means it cant normally be cast as a spell. You could, however, cast it via some alternate means, like with Fist of Suns or Minds Desire.
Fist of Suns replaces the casting cost with a new one thereby bypassing the lack of one and with Minds Desire you aren't casting it at all but playing it.
August 27, 2016 5:59 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle I did EXACTLY that actually when I posted the RULES ERRATA from WotC's own Wheel of Fate webpage that they write themselves. I am in no way being a dick about anything. I provided multiple occurrences of evidence that proved everyone else wrong and you are choosing to ignore it. Now maybe you didn't get to see everyone one of my posts before reply so plz go through and read everything before posting again.
August 27, 2016 6:02 p.m.
ALso you can use Flashback to cast Wheel of Fate which also states that the Flashback costs is equal to its casting cost. Yet WotC have specifically stated that you can't do that either. If the casting costs was equal to 0 then you would be able to do that with Flashback. SO because you can't there is no casting cost.
August 27, 2016 6:04 p.m.
Here's yet ANOTHER reason why you can't do it.
117.6. Some mana costs contain no mana symbols. This represents an unpayable cost. An ability can also have an unpayable cost if its cost is based on the mana cost of an object with no mana cost. Attempting to cast a spell or activate an ability that has an unpayable cost is a legal action. However, attempting to pay an unpayable cost is an illegal action.
August 27, 2016 6:07 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #16
I believe the problem here is your understanding between Mana Cost, and Converted Mana Cost. Mana Cost is not equal to Converted Mana Cost. The Mana cost of Reforge the Soul is 
, while its Converted Mana Cost is 
.
Now compare Pact of Negation and Wheel of Fate.
Pact of Negation has a Mana Cost of , and a Converted Mana Cost of .
It can be cast via flashback because it has a mana cost.
It can be cast via Goblin Dark-Dwellers because its CMC is less than
.it can be replicated via Djinn Illuminatus because it has a mana cost.
it can be cast as a normal spell because it has a Mana Cost and its Mana Cost is
.
Wheel of Fate has no Mana Cost, but it does have a Converted Mana Cost of due to ruling 202.3a
It cannot be cast via flashback, because it has no Mana Cost.
It can be cast via Goblin Dark-Dwellers because its CMC (Converted Mana Cost) is
.It cannot be replicated because it has no Mana Cost.
It cannot be cast as normal because it has no Mana Cost.
It Can be cast by alternative means: Omniscience, Mind's Desire, Fist of Suns, Dream Halls, etc, because when casting a spell via an alternate casting cost, you are no longer illegally casting the spell even though it has no regular Mana Cost.
August 27, 2016 6:20 p.m.
Well what separates this from an alternate cost? It is NOT Flashback nor Replicate but a separate effect looking at a CMC and playing it for free. Can you guys at least keep it civil? And maybe explain why you think each is in which camp? Why is Dark Dwellers' effect comsidered analogous to Flashback/Replicate or not? I enjoy a debate but let's stay productive. Didn't realize my question was so undecided...
August 27, 2016 8:49 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #18
There is no separation. To cast something "without paying its mana cost" is an alternate cost in and of itself. Flashback is also an alternate cost but doesn't work with Wheel of Fate as explained below.
Replicate is an additional cost, meaning you may pay the replicate cost any number of times you wish on top of the mana cost.
I am keeping it civil by explaining the difference between mana cost and converted mana cost. I have not typed in all Caps nor simulated yelling.
An alternate cost is defined as a method of casting a spell other than that of the normal mean of paying its mana cost.
Dream Halls allows you to discard a card instead of paying the mana cost.
Fist of Suns allows you to pay WUBRG instead of paying the mana cost.
Snapcaster Mage allows you to flashback something from your graveyard. The important thing to note for flashback is that it relies on the card being flashed back to have a mana cost. If it has none, there is no way to pay the flashback cost and therefore un-castable. This is why flashback, although being an alternate casting method, does not work with Wheel of Fate.
Omniscience/Tamiyo, Field Researcher/Goblin Dark-Dwellers allow you to cast the spell without paying anything at all.
August 27, 2016 9 p.m.
raging squiggle i wasn't calling you out for being uncivil; my spologies if you read it that way. Tbh reading tbe cards in question Dark Dwellers seems aligned with the alt cost case like the fist/dream halls. But that's my view. Just cuz it's from the yard does not mean it is flashback/unearth/replicate. My view.
August 27, 2016 10:21 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #20
You're correct. That's why I paired it with Omniscience which is also an alternative casting cost. Both of these cards allow you cast the Wheel of Fate "without paying its mana cost."
August 27, 2016 10:45 p.m.
@MsSysbit: The misunderstanding between Raging_Squiggles/myself and mtgoldie seems to be how each of the rules involved have to be handled. Let me do the painfully detailed breakdown:
Rule Application
First of all, Card text takes precedence over the Comprehensive Rules, as defined by one of the "Golden Rules":
101.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts [the Comprehensive Rules], the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. (...)
Specific card rulings don't overrule rules in the sense of the word, but provide clarifications or official (binding) interpretations of a card's functionality under the existing rules.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Goblin Dark-Dwellers's ETB ability allows to cast a target Instant or Sorcery card in the controller's graveyard with CMC of 3 or less, without paying it's mana cost. This requires several rules quotes:
117.9. Some spells have alternative costs. An alternative cost is a cost (...) applied to it from another effect, that its controller may pay rather than paying the spell's mana cost. Alternative costs are usually phrased, (...) "You may cast [this object] without paying its mana cost."
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost (...)
There are no relevant Gatherer Rulings.
Wheel of Fate
Wheel of Fate is a Sorcery, has no mana cost, and is assumed to be in the graveyard in this example. Here are the additionally relevant rules quotes:
117.6. Some mana costs contain no mana symbols. This represents an unpayable cost. An ability can also have an unpayable cost if its cost is based on the mana cost of an object with no mana cost. (...)
202.3a. The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0, unless that object is the back face of a double-faced permanent or is a melded permanent.
There are no relevant Gatherer Rulings (more on this further down).
Tieing everything together
Wheel of Fate has no mana cost, therefore a CMC of 0 as per rule 202.3a. It's a Sorcery, and nothing in the given example prevents it from being targetted by Goblin Dark-Dwellers's ability while in the graveyard.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers allows casting the card for the alternative cost of "without paying it's mana cost". As per rule 117.9, this replaces the original mana cost with this alternative cost, and while the original cost couldn't be paid (as per rule 117.6), the alternative cost can.
Rule 117.6's third sentence doesn't affect anything here, as Goblin Dark-Dwellers's ability has no cost, and certainly not one based on CMC of anything.
End Result: Wheel of Fate can be cast by Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Wheel of Fate's mentioned Gatherer Rulings
This has no mana cost, which means it cant normally be cast as a spell. You could, however, cast it via some alternate means, like with Fist of Suns or Minds Desire.
In this scenario, Wheel of Fate isn't cast normally (as defined by rule 601.2, which I won't quote in full), so this rule is irrelevant
This has no mana cost, which means it can't be cast with the Replicate ability of Djinn Illuminatus or by somehow giving it Flashback.
Djinn Illuminatus gives the card a Replicate cost equal to it's mana cost, not to it's converted mana cost. The mana cost of Wheel of Fate is non-existant, so the Replicate cost is non-existant, and therefore not payable.
The reason why Flashback won't work is functionally identical, though to be perfectly accurate, the Gatherer Ruling should say "...or by somehow giving it Flashback with a Flashback cost equal to it's mana cost". As of now, all cards that do grant cards in the Graveyard Flashback (Dralnu, Lich Lord, Past in Flames, Recoup, and Snapcaster Mage) set the Flashback cost equal to the card's mana cost, which again in case of Wheel of Fate is non-existant and therefore unpayable.
The rest of the Rulings are addressing the Suspend mechanic and are irrelevant for this scenario.
...can I have my internet points now? :)
@Raging_Squiggle: As I mentioned a while ago in the monstrous-Hydra-something-thread, numbers aren't mana costs - CMCs are always numbers, not costs, so Pact of Negation has a mana cost of , yet a CMC of 0. This is important because you can't compare a number to a mana cost (think variable types - you can't compare a Blob to an Integer and get a sane result. Goblin Dark-Dwellers are looking for a spell with CMC less than 3, not , as is not a number - it literally has to be converted into a number, for example by the game mechanic of CMC.
August 28, 2016 8:11 a.m.
They are all yours BlueScope! Thank you for breaking everything down. Likewise to you Raging_Squiggle. And mtgoldie there is nothing wrong with being wrong. We all make mistakes. I think it just comes doen to mana cost can numerically but not in all cases = converted mana cost. Secondly it might FEEL like flashback/unearth/replicate but it's not; it just is an alternate casting cost that happens to look in the graveyard as opposed to the hand in Omniscience's and any other aforementioned case like Dream Halls. Thank you everyone so much for all your help. Curious: are any of you judges; if so what level(cuz if not you should probs look into it). Later everybody!
August 28, 2016 10:54 a.m.
@MsSysbit: I actually said it as a figure of speech, not to steal the badge from acbooster ;)
I'm judging for a couple of years now at my LGS, but I'm still a L0 because me and my mentor never get around to do any tests :) Since I'm already doing what I want to do (L2 territory doesn't interest me much, and I'm already judging the same I would be as an L1), that's fine for the time being, and noone on the internet knows! ;)
August 28, 2016 5:19 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #24
I would consider myself an L1, but never taken the test to make it "official". Last tests I've done was the Rules Advisor (When it was still around), and the L1 practice tests. I have judged frequently at a small LGS where a lot of new players come. It's pretty fun!
And way to be an answer thief, BlueScope. :O
August 28, 2016 5:28 p.m.
I would definitely consider looking officializing it BlueScope and Raging_Squiggle. You would probs pass with ease. Anyway later! Nice meeting ya both.
August 28, 2016 6:27 p.m.
MsSysbit do you normally call out everyone that was wrong in a discussion ? Guessing not so go check yourself kid, because that means you are only doing it to be insulting and degrading towards me.
I don't even give a crap about this discussion. I know for a fact that I am right and if you guys don't want to believe me that's fine. I talked to a lvl 2 judge about this situation and they supported my argument so w/e kids, enjoy losing your games if this comes up.
All done with you guys now so don't bother responding.
August 29, 2016 12:57 a.m.
Someone is salty mtgoldie. I only did it cuz you well were. And I said it's fine if you are... we all maje mistakes. Maybe try not to be a fragile crybaby that thinks everyone in the world is trying to hurt em? Previously I wasn't but now I don't care. Plus for the "kid" remark; how blut you check yourself before ya wreck yourself. 22 isn't a kid. If this level 2 judge disagrees then have him/her provide arguments on the contrary. You sound like the child now. "W...well I'm still right cuz this um unverifiable source says so!"=you atm. Stop projecting your reality please. Now if we're done here then later! Twas not my pleasure in the case of you.
August 29, 2016 1:08 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #28
sigh You're certainly entitled to your belief and opinion. BlueScope and I have tried, numerous times, to explain it to you.
judges are not infallible. They make mistakes/misunderstandings too. What they think is right may not always be so. What I suggest is showing this discussion to this judge you found, and see with whom he agrees. I know I'm always learning new things even still.
Plus, it's not that we believe you or not or are calling you a liar. We just have compelling evidence in rulings and knowledge of card interactions to be confident in our own assessment of the OP's question.
Anyway, this question has most definitely been sufficiently answered, almost unbearably so. Lol. Have a wonderful magical evening to all, including you, mtgoldie.
August 29, 2016 2:47 a.m.
mtgoldie, guess legacy shardless just doesn't work then.
August 30, 2016 5:02 p.m.
From a ruling on Distended Mindbender:
If its a single-faced card with no mana symbols in its upper right corner (because its an animated land, for example), its converted mana cost is 0.
August 30, 2016 5:10 p.m.
PayOneLife says... #31
Raging_Squiggle I knew there were some alt casting effects that could cast suspend cards, and that there were others that could not. I hadn't sat down and figured it out myself, and then your very clear, correct and articulate explanations sorted it out. Thanks for that.
Sorry you had to put up with mtgoldie failing at comprehension.
acbooster says... #1
If this is incorrect, please let me know
You would be able to cast it as a regular spell because you're using an alternate cost. Normally, you wouldn't be able to cast it because it doesn't have a mana cost, and you would have to suspend it. However, there's a ruling on gatherer that reads, "This has no mana cost, which means it cant normally be cast as a spell. You could, however, cast it via some alternate means, like with Fist of Suns or Minds Desire."
This means that alternate costs can be used to cast it and get around the fact that it has no mana cost.
August 27, 2016 1:09 a.m.