Can flickering a card with echo avoid echo?
Asked by nickiru 9 years ago
So If I have Avalanche Riders out there and his echo comes around, I untap my lands and rather than pay echo I Ghostly Flicker it or something like that. Is the echo avoided? Somewhat like flickering and avoiding Path to Exile .
And if this is true, than I can assume that I must pay echo the next upkeep because it came under my control again; due to echo's ability...
So with that said, is there a way to evade the echo cost completely; not just delaying it like flickering would?
May 23, 2014 9:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
I don't know of an effect off the top of my head. That's a question you could ask in General.
May 23, 2014 10:03 p.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #6
You would run an american deck with venser ( planeswalker) constantly bouncing Avalanche Riders
May 23, 2014 10:48 p.m.
I think you struck gold, if Venser, the Sojourner can activate his ability during an end step when Avalanche Riders comes back; can this be done?
Because vanche comes back at the beginning of your next 'end' step.
May 23, 2014 10:52 p.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #8
Im sure you can activate his ability during any point of your turn if im not mistaken its the same with sorcery spells if im wrong i apologize for not knowing the point you can not use his ability during your turn
May 23, 2014 11:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Planeswalker abilities (formally, loyalty abilities) can only be activated whenever you could normally cast a sorcery (i.e. on your main phase while the stack is empty and you have priority). You can't activate a loyalty ability during the end step.
Additionally, Venser, the Sojourner 's ability specifies "the beginning of the next end step." This means the delayed triggered ability that returns the exiled permanent can and will trigger during your opponent's end step if that is somehow the next end step the game encounters.
Furthermore, echo triggers at the beginning of your upkeep if the permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, so you would need to exile Avalanche Riders in response to the echo ability.
May 23, 2014 11:19 p.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #10
Hm i guess you just need a Cloudshift at the ready and just have venser out so your at best removing two lands a turn getting more out of him so then paying echo isnt awful
Epochalyptik thank you as well for clarifying when loyalty abillites can be triggered
May 23, 2014 11:29 p.m.
Darn, thought I had another continual land destruction combo like Progenitor Mimic on Avalanche Riders or my favorite Acidic Slime . But, Venser, the Sojourner may still yet be useful.
Thanks for your thoughts and law clarifications :D
May 23, 2014 11:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@Jamesfurrow: Note that loyalty abilities are not triggered. They are activated abilities, so they are activated.
May 23, 2014 11:42 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
You could Stifle the echo ability to prevent it completely but that is a bad use of a good card.
May 24, 2014 11:08 a.m.
Yah, I would also prefer the ability to activate Avalanche Riders ability and also pass echo, but the way it is set up I do not think that is possible. I either flicker and delay echo, or not pop a land but skip echo at the cost of a card which is not worth it. O well....
May 24, 2014 1:26 p.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #15
nickiru you have a combo with venser using stifle now... if you have as well cloud shift your destroying 2 lands a turn with out the echo being allowed to trigger
May 24, 2014 1:28 p.m.
Yes I am aware of that. Flicker with venser, But eventually I have to give into echo; since I am only delaying it.
But I am completely fine with that because I can average take out 3 lands. vanche comes down, 1 land, venser flickers, 2 lands, I flicker with Cloud Shift or Ghostly Flicker , 3 lands, and then venser next turn, 4 lands, and see if I can flicker again from drawing.
This is all in an effort to improve land destruction in my decks. I also have Acidic Slime who doesn't have echo who can continually be flickered, popping art/encht/ and lands. Another reason that I am liking venser :D
May 24, 2014 1:39 p.m.
What do you mean by phasing out?
Do you mean flickering? like Cloudshift ?
June 4, 2014 1:01 a.m.
TelleoStar says... #19
Phasing is only delays echo by one turn, same as flicker. Phasing happens during the untap step, before untapping, which means the card has entered before the upkeep, so its echo triggers.
September 6, 2014 4:18 p.m.
TelleoStar says... #20
@nickiru, during every player's untap step, before untapping, all permanents that have the phasing ability "phase out" and leave play. Simultaneously, all permanents that player controls with the phasing ability that have already phased out, "Phase in" and re-enter play.
September 6, 2014 4:21 p.m.
supernator13 says... #21
Objects neither leave nor enter play when they phase in or out. Phased in and Phased Out are not zones, they are a state or status. Like tapped and untapped.
So. When a permanent phases out, it stays on the battlefield, but it is treated as if it did not exist. Phasing out or in will not trigger "enters" or "leaves" abilities. All permanents attached to it phase out with it, and remain attached when they phase in. And all counters remain on the permanent. And all other states remain unaffected - i.e., tapped, untapped, transformed, flipped, face-down, under your control, etc.
Therefore, with echo, if the creature phases out before, or at the beginning of that turns upkeep, the echo cost will not need to be paid. When it phases in, the next upkeep will no trigger the echo ability because it has been under your control the entire time it was phased out, even though it was not treated as anything while it was phased out.
August 25, 2015 1:29 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #22
So a 1 year necro to correct a 3 month necro is a thing that just happened. While you are correct, replying a year after the fact is a little late :)
August 25, 2015 2:16 p.m.
supernator13 says... #23
@Gidgetimer ... Menh. ~shrug~
I regret nothing. :)
Epochalyptik says... Accepted answer #1
You are correct in both of your assumptions. The echo is linked to the specific instance of its source permanent. When you blink that permanent, it becomes a new permanent with no relation to its previous iterations, and is therefore unconnected to the echo ability on the stack.
You'll get another ETB trigger from Avalanche Riders , and you'll have to pay the echo cost at the beginning of your next upkeep.
May 23, 2014 9:03 p.m.