Can an aura enter the battlefield attached to a creature with Spectra Ward on it?
Asked by chrizzilla 9 years ago
For instance, my opponent has exiled my Dragon Mantle with a Banishing Light . I have a Boonweaver Giant out with Spectra Ward on it. I destroy the Banishing Light somehow, causing the Dragon Mantle to re-enter the battlefield. Can it attach to the Giant, or will it have to attach to something else?
nobu_the_bard says... #2
No, you cannot attach Dragon Mantle to the Boonweaver Giant because the Giant has Protection from Red. Even if Dragon Mantle were attached before Spectra Ward , attaching Spectra Ward to him would remove Dragon Mantle due to Protection from Red. This has nothing to do with how the attachments happen (whether you cast the enchantments, they are put into play from any other zone, they get moved, etc).
July 31, 2014 3:24 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #3
pskinn01, the Auras targetting the giant is a different issue. Protection stops Damage, Enchantment (Attachment), Blocking, and Targetting as part of the old DEBT mnemonic.
July 31, 2014 3:26 p.m.
nobu_the_bard - If you read Spectra Ward
it says that "this effect does not remove Auras", so if Dragon Mantle
was already on Boonweaver Giant
then the mantle wouldn't fall off.
The other issue is that Protection from X says that "This permanent can't be enchanted/equipped by X". So after the Spectra Ward is on the Boonweaver Giant you can not put any more Auras on it due to it's protection from all colors.
July 31, 2014 3:27 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #6
I'm sorry, I misread Spectra Ward - I thought it read "This doesn't remove Spectra Ward " (like the old Auras that worked similarly, and had an exception to prevent detaching themselves). In this case, Spectra Ward will only not remove things that were already attached when it became attached; it will still prevent things from being attached otherwise.
July 31, 2014 3:29 p.m.
The reminder text for the protection on the ward does not include the e from debt, so i would not think that would apply.
July 31, 2014 3:33 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #9
From the comprehensive rules:
702.16c A permanent or player with protection cant be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners graveyards as a state-based action. (See rule 704, State-Based Actions.)
The aura can still not be attached after Spectra Ward comes into play; Spectra Ward simply has an exception that causes attaching it to not immediately remove all other Auras.
July 31, 2014 3:38 p.m.
pskinn01 - From the Release Notes on Spectra Ward for M15:
"Although Auras that are already attached to the creature aren't affected by Spectra Ward, the enchanted creature can't be the target of further Aura spells that have one or more colors."
July 31, 2014 3:38 p.m.
The fact that the rule states that they would be removed as a state based action, means it would stay due to the fact that the ward would not check for that statebased affect..
When an enchantment aura comes into play by means other than casting, it dont target..
July 31, 2014 3:47 p.m.
pskinn01 - The issue isn't that the Aura doesn't target, it's that the enchanted creature (in this case a Boonweaver Giant ) has protection from that color. This prevents being enchanted by Auras, and while Spectra Ward says its effect doesn't remove auras, it also prevents new Auras from being put on.
July 31, 2014 3:50 p.m.
The answer is literally written on the card in reminder text. It purposely leaves out the fact that under normal circumstances you cannot enchant things with protection from said color(s). However this card does not remove auras that are attached to the creature. Therefore you cannot cast an aura targeting the creature enchanted by Spectra Ward since you cannot target it (unless the aura was colorless), but you could attach them through other means like in your example since auras only target when cast. This is essentially the same thing as getting around shroud or hexproof with Sun Titan and auras that cost 3 or less that are in your graveyard.
July 31, 2014 3:50 p.m.
Yes, you can. Effectively, what Spectral Ward's ability does is turn off the can't have enchantments of that type attached to it part of protection for that creature. While you still can't cast a colored aura spell targeting it, if you're putting an aura on the battlefield with something like Sun Titan or Replenish, you can attach it to the creature enchanted by the Ward.
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July 31, 2014 3:52 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #16
702.16c A permanent or player with protection cant be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent or player with protection will be put into their owners graveyards as a state-based action.
702.16m Some Auras both give the enchanted creature protection and say this effect doesnt remove either that specific Aura or all Auras. This means that the specified Auras arent put into their owners graveyards as a state-based action. If the creature has other instances of protection from the same quality, those instances affect Auras as normal.
303.4b The object or player an Aura is attached to is called enchanted.The Aura is attached to, or enchants, that object or player.
As you can see protection sends an aura attached to the object to the graveyard as a state-based action. The ability on Spectra Ward
prevents this state-based action. And an object is only considered "enchanted" after the aura is attached.
It cannot be the target of further auras, but since an aura coming in as anything other than a spell doesn't target then it can become attached and the SBA doesn't happen because Spectra Ward
says the protection it offers doesn't remove auras.
July 31, 2014 4:01 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #17
Perhaps here is where you got it? I'm still reading through it myself; I couldn't find the original source of the quote to understand the context.
July 31, 2014 4:02 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #18
The quote posted by pskinn01 is from the Rules Q&A section of an official DCI Judges-only forum.
I will say that the rules text of Spectra Ward is unclear, the revised CR entries on the subject (posted by Gidgetimer) don't explicitly resolve the confusion, and it's very unusual that we're meant to rely on reminder text to get the right answer for this card.
July 31, 2014 4:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #19
I don't actually understand the confusion. Spectra Ward
says the protection it gives doesn't remove auras. It is a valid game state for another aura to be attached to the permanent, so the rules governing how auras enter when not cast will not prevent it from being attached.
303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a players control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesnt specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Auras enchant ability and any other applicable effects.
(I know I am quoting a lot of rules but that is the only way to clear up confusion when people disagree since the rules cannot be disputed)
July 31, 2014 4:59 p.m.
I'm 99% certain that if you are cheating the second Aura into play you can attach it just fine. You just can't cast a colored Aura spell targeting the "warded" creature, because the creature still can't be targeted by colored spells. This is essentially the same as Zur the Enchanter cheating in Auras after already having Diplomatic Immunity . Nothing in the rules stops you from attaching an Aura to something with shroud or protection, you just can't target them, and once it is attached then Spectra Ward 's ability stops the protection from removing it.
Also, there's this from the MTG Rules Manager, which is as official a statement as we currently have and certainly documents the card's intent, even if perhaps the rules are still a bit off. We also still don't have the actual comprehensive rules update for M15 as far as I can tell (just the release notes and rules bulletin), so it may be handled correctly in said update.
July 31, 2014 5 p.m.
I said "Nothing in the rules stops you from attaching an Aura to something with shroud or protection, you just can't target them"
That may be slightly incorrect actually... but regardless, the intent of the rules is clear here. 303.4f's "or other applicable effects" is throwing me off. Thing is, 702.16c doesn't say the Auras can't be attached to a creature with protection, just that they fall off if they are attached.
The rules are definitely unclear on this, but the intended interactions are obvious thanks to Matt Tabak's comment, and it should be played as such in the meantime.
Perhaps this is why the M15 comp. rules update is taking time...
July 31, 2014 5:05 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #22
@Gidgetimer: The problem is that though 702.16m says the SBA of removing an illegally attached object won't be carried out, 702.16c and 303.4f say that an Aura can't be legally attached to an object with protection from a quality of the Aura. Those are different things. If we're going strictly by Spectra Ward 's rules text, it only addresses the SBA, not the rules about legally attaching something. 702.16m needs to be rewritten for clarity.
July 31, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #23
Hmm ok I can see that. Looks like it will be at judge discretion until they release an update or ruling.
pskinn01 says... #1
Short answer is yes...the only time an aura targets is when cast.
July 31, 2014 3:22 p.m.