Brago and infinite bounce, how does it affect Angel of Serenity exile?

Asked by TheMagi 1 year ago

So I've been messing with My Brago, King Eternal deck and gotten a good suggestion in the form of Strionic Resonator. Now Brago, the resonator and Sol Ring can go infinite bounce, however I know that with the way the stack works, temporary exile can turn into very permanent exile when the "return to hand" ability has nothing to target.

So three questions

1) Can I begin the process of almost infinite creature exile with this combo(bouncing Angel of Serenity many times with the copied brago ability)?

2) If so, can someone explain how it would work with the stack to create that situation? This way I can at least explain the BS i'm trying to pull

3) If yes to the first question, would this also work for Fiend Hunter, Oblivion Ring, and Detention Sphere?

PS: Gatherer gives me this: "If Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield before its enters-the-battlefield ability has resolved, its leaves-the-battlefield ability will trigger and do nothing. Then the enters-the-battlefield ability will resolve and exile the targeted creatures and/or creature cards indefinitely."

But i'm not sure how this works on the stack, or how to work it if I need to order the triggers on the stack.

Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1

Yes it works, and will work for all 3 of those other cards. The stack BS is going to be:

  1. Brago trigger on the stack, activate Strionic Resonator putting another Brago trigger on top of it.

  2. Allow the copied Brago trigger to resolve blinking all of the things you want to including Angel of Serenity. Angel of Serenity's ETB triggers and you chose targets for it.

  3. In response to the Angel ETB activate Resonator. This creates a copy of the Brago Trigger as the top item of the stack.

  4. Allow the Brago trigger to resolve exiling Angel. Her LTB goes on the stack above her ETB and as such it has nothing to return

It is important to note that the linked abilities are only linked to the ones from the same instance of the Angel. So this is all that is necessary to make the stuff go away forever. However; since you get to choose the order that triggers go on the stack if multiple things have triggered since the last time a player received priority I would put the LTB from the second resolved Brago trigger on top of the ETB from it entering off the same trigger and let it resolve before doing the third copy effect. This is just so that there is obviously no way that anything could be returned off of it.

March 25, 2015 5:12 p.m.

SorinDankov says... #2

You can also do it if Brago has double strike

May 1, 2015 5:59 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #3

Giving Brago, King Eternal double strike will do nothing along the lines of infinite bounce nor permanent exile off of a temporary exile trigger.

May 1, 2015 10:15 p.m.

SorinDankov says... #4

Wouldn't Double Strike work, only with you replacing "activating Strionic Resonator to copy the trigger" with "Brago dealing combat damage?

May 1, 2015 11:03 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #5

Not at all. With DS:

Brago would deal combat damage to a player in the first strike combat damage step.

His trigger would resolve.

Angel of Serenity would enter exiling up to 3 targets.

The first strike combat damage step ends.

Brago would deal combat damage to a player in the combat damage step.

His trigger would resolve.

Angel of Serenity would leave returning the first three targets to hand.

Angel of Serenity would enter exiling up to 3 targets.

The combat damage step ends.

2 blink triggers is all you get, and no possibility of stack exploitation for permanent exile.

May 2, 2015 10:31 p.m.

SorinDankov says... #6

No offense, but a friend of mine who is a judge says that is completely incorrect. Could you show me the rule that says that?

May 2, 2015 11:28 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #7

No offense, but a DCI certified judge?

It is a result of a lot of rules so I can't point to one in particular. I will however go through the process stating each rule as we get to it and you can tell me where you differ from what I have laid out. I will start right after the end of the declare blockers step since the only additional ability we have given Brago is Double Strike and he would need to be unblocked to trigger at all. I am also assuming no responses to simplify as much as possible.

  1. (510.5. If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that had neither first strike nor double strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.) For the sake of clarity when discussing a combat with multiple combat damage steps this is called the First Strike Combat Damage step. Brago has double strike so he assigns damage during it.

  2. Skipping over the intricacies of exactly how damage is assigned and dealt we go to the third part of the first strike combat damage step. (510.3. Third, any abilities that triggered on damage being assigned or dealt go on the stack.) Brago's ability goes on the stack and it resolves exiling any number of target non-land permanents. Angel of Serenity is going to be one of them. Brago can not be one if you want to get a second trigger because (506.4. A permanent is removed from combat if it leaves the battlefield, if its controller changes, if it phases out, if an effect specifically removes it from combat, if its a planeswalker thats being attacked and stops being a planeswalker, or if its an attacking or blocking creature that regenerates (see rule 701.12) or stops being a creature. A creature thats removed from combat stops being an attacking, blocking, blocked, and/or unblocked creature. A planeswalker thats removed from combat stops being attacked.) Since removing him from combat would make him stop being an attacking creature and only attacking and blocking creatures assign damage in any combat damage step (510.1a Each attacking creature and each blocking creature assigns combat damage equal to its power. Creatures that would assign 0 or less damage this way dont assign combat damage at all.)

  3. During the resolution of Brago's ability both of Angel of Serenity's abilities trigger. The LTB triggers returning the things that were exiled the most recent time before Brago's blink to their owner's hands. This is because they are linked abilities (607.1. An object may have two abilities printed on it such that one of them causes actions to be taken or objects or players to be affected and the other one directly refers to those actions, objects, or players. If so, these two abilities are linked: the second refers only to actions that were taken or objects or players that were affected by the first, and not by any other ability). The ETB triggers exiling up to three new targets. You can put these 2 triggers on the stack in any order (603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority), but the link is still per object and the Angel that left is not the same object as the one that entered (400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence).

  4. In order to advance to the second combat damage step, called the normal combat damage step for ease of identification in combats with multiple combat damage steps, all abilities must resolve (500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesnt cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass in succession with the stack empty. Because of this, each player gets a chance to add new things to the stack before that phase or step ends).

  5. Brago trigger again, this time you could blink him if you want to. Then numbers 3 and 4 again. Also because of the way 510.5 is worded there can never be more than two combat damage steps, even if you put a creature with double strike into the battlefield and in combat after damage is dealt in the First strike combat damage step, it will not create a third combat damage step.

May 3, 2015 1:36 a.m.

SorinDankov says... #8

See, that's where the problems came from. It was hard to find a rule about it. Not many people have tried to make this connection with Double Strike. 500.2 was the rule I was looking for. You're told your whole life that damage is done at the same time in Magic, so it was hard to just be told I was wrong without proof. Thank you.

May 3, 2015 10:48 a.m.

Cole6000 says... #9

Doesnt brago's ability bring everything back at the same time? if so, how would this work?

January 29, 2016 4 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #10

1 year necro FTW.

Also I am confused as to your confusion. Could you please clarify what you don't understand? The process for permanent exile with Brago, King Eternal; Sol Ring; Strionic Resonator; and any one of Fiend Hunter, Angel of Serenity, Oblivion Ring, or Detention Sphere is laid out in the first answer using the angel as the exile outlet.

January 29, 2016 9:28 p.m.

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