Assigning combat damage (banding)
Asked by hyena69 8 years ago
Scenario: Sluiceway scorpion (2/2 Deathtouch) is attacking, becomes blocked by two Yotian Soldiers (1/4). Can the scorpion assign 1 damage to each of the soldiers to kill them both?
If yes exhange the scorpion with a 2/2 bear. Can it still split the damage between the soldiers?
Now exchange the bear with 6/4 Craw Wurm and give one of the soldiers banding. Can the damage be split 3/3 by the defender?
Now give the Wurm a rancor and turn it into 8/4 trample. Can the banding soldiers put all 8 damage on one of the soldiers so that 4 of it tramples through? Or give one soldier 3 damage and the other 5?
Epochalyptik says... #3
Please link all cards in your question.
Sluiceway Scorpion
Yotian Soldier
Craw Wurm
Rancor
At the beginning of the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is blocked by multiple blocking creatures, the active player announces a damage assignment order (DAO) for the attacking creature. This is the order in which the attacking creature will deal damage to the blocking creatures. In order to deal damage to a blocking creature, each creature before it in the DAO must have been assigned lethal damage.
In the Sluiceway Scorpion case, Sluiceway Scorpion may assign 1 damage to each Yotian Soldier. Although Yotian Soldier is a 1/4, Sluiceway Scorpion's deathtouch ability makes 1 damage lethal damage to any creature.
In the 2/2 bear case, you may not divide the damage because you cannot assign lethal damage to either blocker. You must assign the 2 damage to whichever Yotian Soldier is first in the DAO.
In the banding case, we must consult the rules for banding.
702.21j During the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is being blocked by a creature with banding . . . the defending player (rather than the active player) chooses how the attacking creature's damage is assigned. That player can divide that creature's combat damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking it. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 510.1c.
The defender may not choose to split the damage illegally; he or she must still adhere to the rules for DAO. Now, he or she may choose to assign all of Craw Wurm's damage to one blocking creature and thus spare the other.
In the Rancor case, it's important to note that trample damage may only be assigned to the defending player if ALL of the creatures in the DAO have been assigned lethal damage. As before, the defending player, because he or she controls banding blockers, may assign all of Craw Wurm's damage to one blocker such that none of it is assigned to the other blocker and none of it tramples over.
May 25, 2015 6:04 p.m.
TheRedMage says... Accepted answer #4
I believe that Epochalyptik's answer is incorrect regarding the banding scenarios. Here is what I think happens in all cases:
Your scorpion needs to deal lethal damage to a blocker before it can start dealing damage to the next blocker in the damage order. However, any amount of damage from a source with deathtouch is lethal, so your scorpion can assign 1 damage to the first soldier and one damage to the second, and the game will be fine with that, since the first one was assigned lethal damage before the second one was assigned any damage. So yes, you can assign one damage to each soldier and trade your 2/2 Sluiceway Scorpion for two 1/4 Yotian Soldiers. Notice that assigning both damage to one soldier is also an acceptable way to assign damage (though obviously disadvantageous most of the time)
In this case you can't actually split the damage. As mentioned earlier, you need to assign lethal damage to a creature before you start dealing damage to the next one. So, in the Declare Blockers step, you order the two Yotian Soldiers (let's say soldier A is first and soldier B is second). If you try to assign any damage to soldier B before 4 damages are assigned to soldier A, the game will be "Nu-uh! You haven't assigned enough damage to soldier A yet!".Obviously you have only 2 damages to play with, so the only legal damage assignment is: 2 damages to soldier A, no damage to soldier B.
Things here work differently than before because of banding. Specifically, since one of the blocking creatures has banding, the blocking player gets to assign damage to his blocking creatures and does not need to obey any requirements whatsoever while doing so. Dealing 3 damage to each Yotian Soldier is thus a legal damage assignment (as is any other damage assignment as long a all six damage are being dealt).
Confusing is the name of the game with banding, so I am not 100% sure that this is a correct answer, but if I interpret 702.21j correctly, all the damage needs to be assigned to the soldiers and none can trample through (this harkens back to the days of yore, when banding was in fact conceived as an answer to large tramplers). The blocking player is still free to split that damage however they want, even if this damage assignment would be illegal in a non-banding situation. In this case, for example, it is possible to have the Wurm deal 8 damage to a soldier and none to the other. As before, any other damage assignment is legal as long as 8 damage are being assigned between the two soldiers.
Or, say, if you were blocking with Benalish Hero, Dromoka Warrior and a 0/1 goat token made by Trading Post, you could assign all eight damage to the poor goat token and your hero and your warrior will kill the wurm and live to tell the tale.
May 25, 2015 6:37 p.m. Edited.
TheRedMage says... #5
Of course it's possible I am wrong and Epochalyptik is right (he usually is) but as far as I know this is what is going on. I think I remember the fine folks on judgecast talking about this in some old episode, and the comp-rules seem to confirm.
May 25, 2015 6:42 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@TheRedMage: No, you're correct. I reviewed the rules and did some research and it seems that the second half of 702.21j allows the defending player to completely ignore the rules for damage assignment.
I personally think the rules could be a bit more explicit about it; typically, effects that allow a player to make a choice that another player would normally have made still require the former to follow any rules that would have applied to the latter. "divide that creature's combat damage as he or she chooses" doesn't necessarily exempt that player from the DAO on first blush.
May 25, 2015 6:52 p.m.
TheRedMage says... #7
They probably could stand to be a little bit more clear, yes. Something like:
702.21j During the combat damage step, if an attacking creature is being blocked by a creature with banding [...] the defending player (rather than the active player) chooses how the attacking creature's damage is assigned. That player can divide that creature's combat damage as he or she chooses among any number of creatures blocking it, and can ignore the normal damage assignment order rules while doing so. This is an exception to the procedure described in rule 510.1c.
Alternatively there could be an example or something. Banding comes up os rarely that I guess they don't thin it's worth it to take the time to change it I guess. Can't really blame them - 95% of the banding questions are asked by judges trying to stump other judges or trolls :)
May 25, 2015 7:05 p.m.
Brilliant, thanks guys for answering so thoroughly, and once again it works the way I hope. Figured out how to link cards now :-)
Thanks and may your future boosters be glorious :-)
May 25, 2015 8:47 p.m.
And it's not you guys I'm trolling it is my friends that I play with, I love using ancient cards with 6 point size font walls of text or by using ancient mechanics like banding (planning on hitting them with a banding rampage trample deck just to see their brains melt when they try to calculate how combat will go)
eojam says... #1
You assign combat damage unless a blocker has banding, then your opponent decides who jumps in front of the gun.
May 25, 2015 6 p.m.