APNAP and delayed checks
Asked by MindAblaze 3 years ago
So this happened yesterday and I just want to confirm how this works.
Multiplayer game; The active player controls a Defense of the Heart.
Non-active player controls another creature and Tendershoot Dryad.
Third player is irrelevant with regards to triggers or creature count (less than 2,) but is next in turn order after the active player.
Active player begins their turn, and on their upkeep both abilities trigger.
The question; because no opponent to the active player controls 3 creatures at the beginning of the upkeep does the Defense of the Heart trigger in the first place? I understand that IF it triggers it will resolve because it checks again on resolution, but my question is whether it triggers or not.
Tylord2894 says... Accepted answer #2
Defense of the Heart will not initally trigger.
A triggered ability with an intervening "if" clause checks the clause when the triggering event occurs and again as it resolves. The condition must be true at both times or it won't trigger or won't resolve, respectively.
The specific rule for this is 603.4.
Hope this helps!!
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
July 1, 2020 2:15 p.m.
Tylord2894 says... #3
MindAblaze: Importantly, checking to see whether or not an ability has triggered is not as part of the SBA check. Abilities can trigger at any time; however, they are not put onto the stack until after SBAs are checked and performed. It's a small but not insignificant detail.
July 1, 2020 2:23 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #4
Ok. So it just checks on upkeep automatically?
It still has to check to see if it triggers at all on upkeep so I’m just unsure of the language. If that isn’t a state based action I’m unsure what is.
July 1, 2020 2:35 p.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #5
An ability checking whether it should trigger isn't a state based action (see section 704 of the CR for the list of SBAs). A triggered ability triggers whenever the triggering event happens, even if it's at a time that no-one has priority and SBAs can't be checked. In this example the triggering event is the game moving to the start of the upkeep step.
The following rules give additional relevant details:
603.1 Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as “[When/Whenever/At] [trigger condition or event], [effect].”
603.2 Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
603.2a Because they aren’t cast or activated, triggered abilities can trigger even when it isn’t legal to cast spells and activate abilities. Effects that preclude abilities from being activated don’t affect them.
603.2b When a phase or step begins, all abilities that trigger “at the beginning of” that phase or step trigger.
July 1, 2020 2:56 p.m.
Tylord2894 says... #6
Right, in this specific case, the timing difference between when a trigger is checked and when SBAs are checked is basically non-existent. I was saying that mostly as a general piece of advice.
Speaking technically, you start your Upkeep. That is the triggering condition for Defence, so Defence is checked for the trigger. It may or may not trigger, but then SBAs are checked. Once they are checked and performed, the trigger is then put onto the stack (if its there). Again, I don't think it really matters in this interaction, but the Defense trigger is checked before SBAs are.
MindAblaze says... #1
I’m pretty sure this is covered by this;
“603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, “At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game.” Its controller’s life total is checked as that player’s upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn’t trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player’s life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.”
My friends are convinced it triggers to check and then performs its “check” only once it’s on the stack, however I believe it checks as an SBA, and then checks again due to the “intervening if.”
July 1, 2020 2:15 p.m.