The State of the Community
TappedOut forum
Posted on April 1, 2015, 12:33 a.m. by CanadianShinobi
Tapped Out Community I think we need to talk; and by we I mean all of us, together.
I don't know if I have a right to do this and I don't want to step on anyone's toes too much, but someone needs to say something. Because, as far as I can tell, and as far as many of the people I talk to on here can tell, the Community isn't doing so great. I would even hazard to say that the Community is doing rather poorly.
I've been on Tapped Out for nearly two years now. And for the majority of my time it has been a fantastic place to be. Tapped Out has introduced me to a number of great people and has generally made me a much better Magic player. Even before I joined the site and was looking into Magic I browsed the site for deck ideas. But recently, Tapped Out hasn't been so great. There's been a substantial amount negativity and I will be the first to admit that I have done my fair share of contributing to that negativity.
I can't say for certain when it started, but I first picked up on it back when the Ban lists were announced in January. I'm not saying that's the root cause, but it did polarize the Community. I know I was pissed off and maybe we haven't gotten that anger and vitriol out of our systems. But we have to. Because one of the best aspects of this Community is that it isn't policed by Moderators as some sites are. And it shouldn't have to be. I see the Moderators as something of a last resort and even then I hesitate to bother them because they're players and people just like everyone else.
I don't know what needs fixing, but I know something needs fixing. And a lot of people know that. This isn't the Community I decided to join, because that Community was fun and compelled discussion. I don't know what made us all bitter and ready to insult someone instead of assisting them, but it needs to stop. Because it just isn't fucking healthy. I don't have a solution. I don't even have a suggestion for a solution, but I'm hoping we can pull together and think of something.
Thanks T/O. Now let's talk.
Arigato gozaimus
TurboFagoot says... #3
"Arigato gozaimus"
Just taking a moment to point out that this was both wildly unnecessary and horribly misspelled. (Even for a Romanization)
Part of the negativity you mentioned, sure, but I can't sit idly by while people get things incorrect.
April 1, 2015 12:40 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #4
Oh god what? An open letter on censorship? Is there some juicy gossip I'm missing that's been going on?
April 1, 2015 12:41 a.m.
HolyFalcon says... #6
I've seen some people, no names will be named, outright say on a persons deck "sucks", then someone will tell them to stop, and the person will then post on the person who said stop's decks "sucks". There has also been an uprise in s**tposting on the site.
Hey Epochalyptik, I have an idea. Maybe make the comment tutorial mandatory? And make a forum tutorial?
April 1, 2015 12:43 a.m.
I have witnessed an increase in negativity in the community, but fortunately I haven't been part of any of it, simply because I don't get involved with it. That being said, I've still managed to have a lot of the interesting, educational, and compelling conversations that I love about this community. I believe this is because I just don't get involved with any of the negative, even though I do notice the increase. I think there are indeed some issues, but mainly I think everyone needs to just be productive, nice, friendly and civil. This is what allows us to thrive: friendliness, and productivity.
April 1, 2015 12:44 a.m.
The comment tutorial was mandatory but its not anymore. I don't believe in silver bullets really. I also would be weary to say things are "trending" up or down.
also interested to know what was censored
April 1, 2015 12:46 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #9
April 1, 2015 12:48 a.m.
Hmmm... Well, I haven't been on the site for long, but what I can tell you is that I haven't seen a single negative comment on a deck yet. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I think this site is still trucking along wonderfully. I can see your concern though, and I get why you say it, but I haven't seen it be a huge problem for me yet.
April 1, 2015 12:48 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #12
The censorship letter was from awhile ago, Go.
Maybe its not going to be as relevant as I originally anticipated.
I think the general theme still applies though: Go back to how we were because things were brighter then.
April 1, 2015 12:49 a.m.
ah okay laz.
Runlue stay away from the modern forum and you should be totally fine =)
April 1, 2015 12:51 a.m.
HolyFalcon says... #14
I call for a site reset. Everyone's everything will go away. Decks, posts, rank, score, trade binder, everything.
/sarcasm
April 1, 2015 12:52 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #16
Here's the general administrative philosophy around these parts, for those who are interested.
We like to take a hands-off approach to moderation in almost all instances. Generally, we only involve ourselves if there's a case of harassment, spam, trade fraud, etc. In short, something that immediately threatens the state of the community or individual users.
What we don't do is regulate the quality of posts. I suppose some of you have seen the recent complaints about shitposting and how there's been a general decline in the productive, meaningful conversation going on (this thread is about exactly that). To some extent, we do allow users a relatively high degree of freedom when it comes to articulating ideas, and we don't punish you for poor articulation.
This has led to a healthier community overall, but it doesn't really address situations like the one we're discussing now. And the policy really shouldn't change radically in order to do so. It would be a waste of administrative time and it would create an oppressive and elitist environment if we were to prevent users from or punish users for posting below-standard comments and threads.
One of the larger problems I've noticed as of late is a trend toward hostile discussion environments. In the past, the community has been fairly civil even when debating over the most polarizing of Magic-related topics. But, starting around the beginning of 2015, we've seen a decline in the quality of posts being made in active discussions/debates. Part of this is a growing tendency to make assertions without backing them up, or to repeat previous assertions in the face of evidence to the contrary and without providing new evidence to support those assertions. This is not how you generate productive discussion, and it has set many a thread on a downward spiral of I-say-you-say that doesn't at all explore the nuances of the topic.
Now, what to do about this? I don't know. This hasn't really been a pervasive problem in the past, and it needs to not be a problem going forward. But it seems like the kind of thing that must be solved organically. There's no effective and efficient organizational solution to this kind of activity.
April 1, 2015 12:53 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #17
I'm just gonna copy/pasta this from the Just Chatting thread (with a few edits). I think it will serve some use.
The problem with debates is that even if you an whoever you are debating with don't intend any malice, that's not what is coming off to others. Others will still get uncomfortable about the fact that a debate is happening, just because it "feels" like malice. This uncomfortableness propagates, and affects other people. Thus a chain occurs.
As for the cause, I stated quite a while back that it was pretty much WotC and company themselves that were causing this from being an unprofessional company. Many of us read the article on how they treated their employees, we know very well that they aren't being professional, and we see it all the time in almost every action they are currently making (I'm even seeing it in their product). The very way they act, is causing arguments and angst (wrong word?) amongst ourselves as we all try and make reason of WotC's choices. The Pod banning is a good example. The Commander Tuck rulings is another good example. MM15 is a third example. The choices WotC and company just feel heavily unprofessional or "off" to many of us.
As for potential solutions, we need to start acting the way we once did, and from my knowledge, that is mainly stemming from a lack of knowledge of how T/O works. Particularly the points thing. We used to joke around about how the points were just something to have fun with. Something to laugh at. And now that we know its entire function, we get bitter at every turn in which we aren't getting points.
Another solution for the Just Chatting thread itself is this: Have 2 separate threads, one for heavy debating, and one for casual chatting. If something debatable comes up in the Just Chatting thread, move it to the Heavy Debating thread and discuss it there. Finally, for the Just Chatting thread, have it specifically say that it is preferable (but not against any rules) to discuss mtg related things elsewhere. We have forums for all of that, we don't need to be discussing them here, a forum meant for non-mtg related topics. And by discussing them elsewhere, we, who are for the benefit and well being of T/O, will spread our happiness and welcoming attitude around the forums and be able to set more of an example in those locations than in here.
A final thing to note would be to be hesitate on starting debates with the T/O community, especially the non-regulars. Generally these people aren't as well educated as most of us are (hint: read young teenagers) and will have poor debating skills and will base it mainly off of their own opinions and will generally refuse another person's vantage point. So just remember that most of the community will be speaking with opinions, will have poor debating skills, and will generally ignore whatever you say. In this just respond to them with "well you have your opinions and I have mine, and let's just leave it at that", so that way you don't get into a debate with another person who won't listen and will just start getting angry.
Those are the things that I think should be done.
April 1, 2015 12:54 a.m.
i might snip the "administrative philosophy" bit to somewhere about the middle, but the rest certainly was an interesting read.
April 1, 2015 12:56 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #19
I suggest everyone read the Ebook "Next level Magic."
Its incredibly outdated, but it'll get the people the knowledge they need to make and back up these assertations that lead into a devolved storm of poop slinging.
April 1, 2015 12:56 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #20
@yeaGO: I kind of took it for granted that the administrative philosophy ended when I came to my personal observations. That said, I think what I did say is accurate (correct me if I'm wrong).
@vampirelazarus: A basic experience in logic or in argumentation would serve the same purpose. Really, what it comes down to is knowing that your statement will be taken at face value, and, if unsupported, doesn't have much to offer to the discussion.
April 1, 2015 1:04 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #22
TurboFagoot apologies about the butchered Japanese. I've been out of practice due to school.
I suppose I can take my lack of crucifixion as a good thing. I was concerned about going to far by posting this.
April 1, 2015 1:06 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #23
I should probably clarify why I mentioned the book.
It'll get the readers to think about things in a different light, and able to actually comprehend the theory of Magic, rather then just "THIS WORKS BECAUSE ITS AWESOME."
Then, using that knowledge, together with logic and argumentation, you can backup your claims, and go from there.
April 1, 2015 1:07 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #24
Oh, and perhaps a tutorial. Shall I start writing one up? I think an in-depth tutorial would really help this site.
April 1, 2015 1:10 a.m.
Femme_Fatale: the problem is getting people to read the tutorial. And as a general rule, the longer it is, the less interested people become. That being said, if you're happy to write one, I'll happily support it.
April 1, 2015 1:17 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #26
I think a detailed tutorial would immensely helpful. And detailed does not necessarily have to be long. Well... I would think not, but perhaps I'm wrong in making that assumption.
April 1, 2015 1:26 a.m.
If I may respond in some part to the OP. I think tappedout is remarkable in how meticulously interactions and conversations are monitored. I find that most people are generally very pleasantly surprised that administrative work is no bowling alley they hear thundering from above, but its something they can take part in at some point after joining. That isn't some anarchist commune disneyland, that's what I personally observe here every day.
inasmuch as these flare-ups serve as a brainstorm and re/evaluation, while also distributing the right clues that we must all be vigilant in our manner and the way we treat people on this site, i support them.
fun fact: an admin once muted TurboFagoot. I undid it when I noticed it a few days later.
April 1, 2015 1:29 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #29
yeaGO I never meant to suggest that T/O was anarchistic, I deeply apologize if I gave you that impression. I was hoping to convey that the admins,as Epochalyptik phrased it, take a "hands off approach".
April 1, 2015 1:32 a.m.
To be honest, I would not take the 5 minutes to read the tutorial. Not because I think that tutorial's are a waste of time but for the simple fact that, even if I read it, there is and will always be someone who does not want to take the time to even gloss it over. Therefore ruining the purpose of the tutorial which is to help everyone learn to comment civilly and grow the community.
April 1, 2015 1:32 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #31
@Femme_Fatale: A tutorial would be alright, but it's not a real solution if our previous experience is anything to go by. Generally, users tend to ignore material presented for their benefit. For example, forum descriptions, the Q&A info page, and the Q&A warning banners above all of the new thread fields regularly go unheeded, and I constantly find myself moving threads because of it. Providing more information really doesn't seem to be the solution. Low-involvement users will continue to ignore it and post as they already do, and high-involvement users will not benefit from being told what they already know.
April 1, 2015 1:35 a.m.
the problem is not lack of tutorials. the problem is we have just had an increase of users who are either immature or straight up asshats and find it hilarious.
it keeps getting vaguely mentioned the issue with a person on the modern forums but aside from that perfect representation of community backlash to a very negative person but I think that THAT issue is just a branch off the true of shit that has come to this forum.
Ive stated it before. We give people freedoms to speak of almost literally whatever they want as the moderation is here is at a minimum. This WAS a good thing when the community on T/O was smaller and had a closer knit base. This isn't how it is anymore. There is a new population (which is good) but they come without manners, the ability to take criticism and lots of times with no knowledge yet the ego that would indicate they have years of playing. LASTLY they have no sense of maturity. This new group are driving away old members of this site.
Now I am not calling for a witch hunt of new accounts to all be burned at the stake but I feel that as the site grows more if it is to stay a positive environment there needs to be some form of moderation OR here is an idea
Official Rules for the site and have strict rules on the moderator.
they old way has fallen. We must either form a new way or perish in the fall.
April 1, 2015 1:35 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #33
Bahaha I was muted? News to me! Thanks Yeago.
Something I always liked about this site is a lack of an "upvote" system that filters comments. It's always nice when each post is just as visible as any other, to prevent majorities from silencing minorities.
April 1, 2015 1:36 a.m.
Coming from one of the older members (3 years) I wont stick around if shit keeps running downhill like it is.
That isn't a threat. I by no means am such an important figurehead that my leaving will cause issues. Its just to show that three years of loyalty can and will be forgotten by people if they feel the place they once liked is now a place where people just shit talk and shit post.
April 1, 2015 1:39 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #35
Your first paragraph I also agree with yeaGO. I've personally always believed in the community effort to perform "administrative cleaning" around the site was a good thing. We all contribute nicely and calmly to keep the site under control, providing information and direction when needed, and voicing opinions on more complicated matters. I think that this is a strong contributor to the positive mood this site experiences in comparison to many other sites.
Another opinion I want to share, is that I actually think the Just Chatting threads have in so far been hindering the rest of the site. A lot of regular users head there for discussion rather than utilizing the rest of the site for its intended purpose. Myself included. In this I think we are hindering the site's diversity of threads in the actual forums in that the people who would be best in creating threads that are positive, constructive, and good models for the newer/younger users to follow don't post them because they head to Just Chatting to discuss this. While I realize half-way in writing this that I already touched on this subject, I'm just going to say again that the easiest solution to this would be to discourage (but not restrict) heavy magic related discussions in the Just Chatting threads so that we can host these discussions in the forums they belong in.
In retrospect, this could be a method of dealing with users like IndyMeta in that if we constantly set an example for other users to follow, mayhaps they too would one day start following our example.
April 1, 2015 1:40 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
@ApocryphalSaint: What, though, would you have us do? I agree that there needs to be some form of progress made if the community is to retain the interest of veteran users, but I don't necessarily believe that a more aggressive administrative policy is productive on that front. While we may succeed to a small degree in policing the community, the improvement will be artificial: it will be the result of increased work on the back end to remove subpar contributions, and it will, in turn, result in decreased openness of discussion. And who sets the standard for what is and isn't acceptable?
@Femme_Fatale: I do often see some things posted in JC that would be more appropriate and productive as topical threads in whatever Magic-related forum is most relevant. I don't think it would take too much to ask the JC regulars to post new threads appropriately.
April 1, 2015 1:49 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #37
woah woah woah... hold on.... hold on....
Stop the presses...
CanadianShinobi, what you apologized for makes it sound like you think anarchism is an insult, and a bad thing... Why do you think that?
April 1, 2015 1:49 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #38
Actually Epochalyptik, from my understanding is that the tutorials aren't advertised very well. They need to be in a location in which newer users will actively look at. Below the comment box isn't one of them, as even I didn't know that they were there for perhaps a good whole year. Perhaps to do this, we would need a site wide survey of "where do you most frequent" and/or "what sections of the site do you look at the most" in order to find the answer of where to best advertise the tutorial.
Second thing is that "Help" doesn't actually tell the newer users that it is actually a tutorial. For most users, a "Help" section would be more of a place to find answers for technical problems, then to a place to find out how the site functions. If we re-worded that to being "site tutorial" then people might click on it more (I'm also seeing the same thing for the Rule Q&A, it would be better off to be named MtG Rules Q&A). Finally, the location of it is in a terrible place, as no one looks at the bottom of the site. That spot is known to be "the place where nothing is relevant to me", ie: the legal documents section.
April 1, 2015 1:50 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #39
I'm glad we're about to dive into what clearly matters: a discussion on the value of Anarchy.
April 1, 2015 1:51 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #40
On second thought, Shinobi, lets have that discussion on our walls, not here. Don't want to derail productive speech.
April 1, 2015 1:51 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
@Femme_Fatale: The fact that existing tutorials are not directly embedded in the user experience is only partially relevant. We also need to consider the precedent set by the comment tutorial (while it was mandatory) and by the material we post to help clarify site functions. I think you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that the Q&A info page or the new thread banner are not visible enough, and yet we still have a large number of misplaced posts in both locations. The implication, to me, is that extra reading material does not greatly improve user knowledge.
April 1, 2015 1:53 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #42
I also want to mention another opinion again, in that we can't do anything about some of this negativity occurring, because it is stemming from how WotC is handling their company, their product and their customers. So while focusing on improving our community is a good thing, we have to realize that we can only go so far and do so much. Trying to solve a problem that doesn't stem from us would only hinder our community. We might just have to face that it is magic itself that is making the community bitter and move on.
April 1, 2015 1:55 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #43
I want to mention that the comment tutorial really did not teach the users anything. I'm using my daughter as an example, she spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to make a post after doing the tutorial. I basically showed her what to do with a gif at the end of it. And if the amount of threads we get of users asking "how do I do something" is any regard, I think it is even further evidence for this.
April 1, 2015 1:58 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #44
At the risk of turning this into a closed, two-person discussion, I'd like to mention that we can't necessarily blame WOTC for things that are ultimately at the discretion of individual users or the community. To my knowledge, nothing catastrophic has happened at or through WOTC, and to say that problem stems from elsewhere appears to be a diversion, whether intentionally so or not.
April 1, 2015 2 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #45
I agree with Epoch here - The recent bullying going on has little to do with WOTC, it's just a coincidence that WOTC events and the presence of negativity happened at or around the same time.
April 1, 2015 2:02 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #46
The following goes out to Femme.
I take umbrage with the idea that WotC is making the community bitter. Magic is (And has been) seeing a period of unprecedented growth. Tournaments are larger than ever, and new sets are seeing rave reviews from pros and casuals alike. (Minus Fate limited, I suppose is the biggest outlier from that point)
Trying to brush aside problems with this site's community as somehow being WotC's fault seems outrageous. Combine this with the fact that in your original post you site the commander "tuck" rule (Something WotC has literally no say in) as being a decision of theirs that annoys players makes me think less of your argument.
I also am borderline offended (On WotC's behalf) that you call the choices they actually do make (Bannings and Modern Masters, as per your original post) as being unprofessional. Who exactly are you to judge that? Disliking a decision is fine, and voicing your opinion is even better, but to call a company unprofessional? Please.
April 1, 2015 2:02 a.m.
Femme_Fatale I can see what youre saying with the correlation to WOTC and the attitudes here but I think youre downplaying what is happening here and up playing the effect the recent changes are making
Epochalyptik Its a hard issue to tackle. I get what youre saying about the increased workload behind the curtain with a minimal increase in the product of said work. I think one thing that could be done is like reformatting of the layout of the home page with a new section called the Tapped Out Creed or something along those lines
This creed states simple rules. Do homophobic or racial slurs. keep threads on topic and like blatantly disrespectful or meaningless comments will be removed... the thing about the internet is people get vicious without even thinking about it. when they see a reminder every-time they are on the home page they are then more often consciously thinking about the things that they say, thus having self moderation happen before the Enter key is even hit.
Its simple and it shows that the community values these things. that really in and of itself does alot. yeaGO please think about doing this.
April 1, 2015 2:05 a.m.
TurboFagoot turn down the motors man. that seemed hostile...you dont have to sugarcoat but you dont have to prison shank someone with your opinion either
April 1, 2015 2:07 a.m.
EDIT: NO homophobic or racial slurs not DO them. jesus proof read man. PROOF READ
vampirelazarus says... #2
I sort of agree, and I sort of dont agree.
People are taking situations too far with a certain member, but if you look at who it is thats doing, and then compare how long those individuals have been here with how long some other regulars have been... I don't know, I just see the issue being a small, really focused attack on one individual across multiple threads, by the same group. Not really a "negativity" across the entire site.
This is relevant again, a short piece I wrote:
An open letter to the TappedOut Community Playtest
Unformat* vampirelazarus
SCORE: 3 | 0 COMMENTS | 120 VIEWSApril 1, 2015 12:39 a.m.