Suggestion: Tagging Card Nicknames
TappedOut forum
Posted on Aug. 24, 2015, 2:04 p.m. by Triforce-Finder
So, there's a whole bunch of cards that have widely used nicknames. Some are easy to figure out. Most will know immediately that "Eugene" is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. But players reading about "Bob" for the first time will probably not have an easy time figuring out that it refers to Dark Confidant.
Now imagine typing [ [ bob ] ] or [ [ eugene ] ] would give those words the same rollover popup as it would give to [ [ Dark Confidant ] ] or [ [ Ugin the spirit dragon ] ].
This would help players that are new to the game or the format (maybe a Modern player getting into EDH) to follow a discussion without constantly googling the card's actual names.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #3
I mean, it's possible, but with a lot of coding (and copy pasting :) ). I think an easier way to do it would be useful though.
August 24, 2015 2:54 p.m. Edited.
Triforce-Finder says... #4
That is indeed something I was thinking about too. Nicknames are not really official. They're decided by mob rule, but how do you implement that in actual bits and bytes?
Option one:
Just adding a nickname field to the fix card formular, and have the one who approves the fix decide if the nickname is used commonly enough to warrant the rollover effect. Maybe limit it to one or two nicks per card to keep the database manageable.
This is rather simple from the technical perspective, but requires a little bit of extra supervision.
Option two is completely variable:
Adding an additional syntax to the card tag command that allows to put the rollover on any text.
[ [ card:dark confidant|Bob ] ]
However, this method is prone to be used improperly since it does not enforce using an appropriate nickname. At the very least it should not allow to put a card rollover on the name of another card. On the upside, you could have this: [ [ card:storm crow|Strongest Card Ever ] ].
Then there's Option three, which kind of combines both:
Implement a syntax that allows to apply the rollover to any text as in option one, and record the used nicks. If a text is frequently and consistently used as nickname for a certain card by different users, save it to the database and make it available for the shorthand tagging as in the original post. I'm not sure how feasible that is in terms of memory consumption though. Probably not very.
I'd personally favor option one, as it's the simple and foolproof one.
August 24, 2015 3:30 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #5
Option two will never happen, as a nickname is used to make it easier for people to mention a card without having to restate their really long name. K-man is so much easier to type down than Kolaghan's Command, which in turn is easier to type down than [[Kolaghan's Command|K-man]].
Option one was the first thing that came to my mind, however the problem is is that the admins cannot determine any information from a card submission. So they have no idea how to tell if the nickname is actually a decent nickname without accepting the submission first, checking to see which one was added, and then removing it later on.
Option one holds two more problems: Our admins are not well versed in every single format, and some don't really even play any magic anymore because lack of time. So they won't be able to judge the effectiveness of a card nickname.
The final problem is that there have been numerous occasions of trolling on the card submission form. Something like "card nickname" is a field very much prone to immaturity and trolling. Remember the card nickname thread? Where everything that was a wurm had a cock nickname and all the titans were nicknamed ____ titties?
It's a good idea, just hard to manage. The best way I can think of is that anything with a comma in its cardname automatically has a nickname tied to it, with the nick being everything before that comma. Examples: Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ... etc etc. Sure this could be a problem with planeswalkers, but if you include the set syntax, it would all be possible. Like [[Elspeth (THS)]]
August 24, 2015 3:45 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #7
I actually don't remember that thread. Agh, I just know I won't be able to resist looking it up, going through a big part of it, then regret the whole thing.
For approving nicknames, admins not versed in a format could ask any player that they know to be versed in the format and to be trustworthy.
If that doesn't suffice, the problem is more or less solvable with Google, I guess. They already have very good relevance/popularity algorithms that allow to search for things like "mtg K-man" and form an opinion based on number and relevance of the results. For example:
- My search for mtg k-man (kman and "k-man" too) yielded no results associated to Kolaghan's Command, so the nick is probably not associated with the card.
- Searching for "mtg K-mand" (also "kmand, k mand and k.mand)on the other hand yielded several results right on the first page from different sites as TO and reddit that were mostly associated to Kolaghan's Command, but the total was notably below 1000 results, which makes me think it is appropriate, but probably not popular enough yet to warrant inclusion.
- searching for "mtg bob" was very conclusive. Even without being familiar with the format, I could immediately see that the name is widely used and recognized by the relevance and number of search results.
- I searched "mtg eugene" too. Barely any relevant results showed up. Either Google can only be used to confirm a positive with accuracy, or I'm overestimating the popularity of the nickname.
Of course that is not a 5-second job. It took me a few minutes for each nickname to think about possible punctuations, go through the first three result pages, check some results for relevance and so on. I'd say researching the dominance of a nickname is a three-minute-job, maybe a bit less with a bit of routine.
The "before comma" shorthand is something I'd see as problematic for characters that had as many iterations as Jace for example. Recalling the set it was printed in might be more hassle than actually typing the name out. Well, at least for me it would. That could be circumvented by making the most relevant one the default. But then, which one is the most relevant card? That's even harder to determine than the appropriateness of a nickname. Anyways, it is not too hard for a new player to make the jump from a jace or elspeth to the actual card, since the name is not different beyond recognition.
August 24, 2015 5 p.m. Edited.
Triforce-Finder says... #8
P.S. The before comma shorthand would certainly be useful for cards with only one iteration, as Emrakul for example.
August 24, 2015 5:18 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #9
I just thought of a really useful implementation for this: The land cycles. They immediately get tagged a new name when spoiled, and those names are easily accepted by the community (example: The new BFZ lands will quickly be dubbed as "tango lands" within a few days). However, remembering all the lands is a pain in the ass, even for competitive players (which means that newcomers are going to be like ... huh?). So having all 5/10 lands appear on a card overlay, even if they appear smaller than normal, would greatly increase the convenience of not having to google what that cycle means. It's also great if you can't remember the card name of a certain land. Nothing annoys me more than having to gatherer search for the bloody land.
EDIT: How does MTGSalvation do this function? Because I just realized that they have it.
August 31, 2015 8:24 p.m. Edited.
Triforce-Finder says... #10
You bring up a good point with MtGSalvation. I think that information from MTGS wiki articles (not forums) can be taken at face value. When you want to know what the term "shock land" or "bounce/karoo land" refers to or just find a land you need, usually the MO is to open MtGSalvation's Land page and check the pages linked in the table at the page's bottom. In fact, I never even use gatherer to search for commonly used lands anymore.
All 5/10/? (? because most land categories consist of more than one cycle, see fetches or karoos) lands popping up might be problematic for users with slow connections or small screens. Small popups are often hardly readable. A gif with 5-10 frames comes to mind, but I've heard people complain about gifs being bad for performance. I'd be fine with a page that just shows all the cards in that specific category or cycle, and a disableable (what a word!) gif popup.
I'm not sure what you mean by MtGS having this function, precisely which manner of secondary terms are recognized by the page. I'm not active or even registered on MtGS forums, despite using the wiki frequently. Can you link to an example showing what you have seen? Might help to figure out how they did it.
September 1, 2015 11:30 a.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #11
I've been thinking about the "trolls suggesting stupid nicknames" problem. Despite the fact that a nickname can be scrutinized easily, the sheer amount of suggestions could make that troublesome. The combase comes to mind, with all the accidentally submitted non-combos lowering the overall usefulness of the tool and creating tons of pruning work.
Quoting Phoenix Wright, maybe we have to turn things around and look at them from a different perspective. The reverse of a few judging everyone's submitted names would be everyone judging the names submitted by a few.
This could be done as follows: Allow only a select few (supporters for example, or active users approved by yeago) to put nicknames into the card database after observing the use in forums and confirming them through research. For a card that has been assigned a nickname, add a button on the "fix card" page that allows to report a misapplied nickname. Maybe even leave that button out for absolute no-brainers as "Goyf" or "Bob".
What do you think?
September 1, 2015 11:53 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #12
I've been thinking about that too. Like, it would be much easier if me, Chief, Epoch and a few select others compiled a list of nicknames that we knew off by hand, made a thread about it, and asked the user base to rate them. Then that thread could be used for future suggestions as sets come out.
My only other suggestion for the land cycles would be to have a separate link. The nickname database could be similar to the combase, but as mentioned above, managed in reverse order. There would be a separate page detailing all the cards that that land cycle nickname references to, with it being sectioned off into what sets they were released as (example, the Tri-Lands nick-page would contain two rows of 5 cards, the top one showing Khans Tri-Lands and the bottom one showing Alara Tri-Lands).
As for a reference MTGS thread, here you go.
September 1, 2015 12:34 p.m. Edited.
Triforce-Finder says... #13
Thanks for linking to the MtGS thread.
While it was impressive at first, I don't think the rollovers on that thread are automatically associated. No intelligent search algorithm would go from "dragon" to Crucible of the Spirit Dragon instead of any dragon-type creature card. I'd really like to see the heuristics able to make that jump without being completely bonkers. Another clue is that the links lead to the specific card shown in the rollover, not a list of cards.
Most likely it is similar to what FAMOUSWATERMELON did in post #2, or an alternate text rollover similar to option 2.
For cycle rollovers, distinction by color is a lot easier than by set, so what you proposed for jace might work better. Tagging [ [ shock land (gw) ] ] could show Temple Garden in the popup, no specification just any card of the cycle. I mean, why would it even be necessary to show more than one example as rollover when all cards in the cycle do practically the same thing and the cycle page lists them all anyway.
September 1, 2015 1:28 p.m. Edited.
Femme_Fatale says... #14
What I meant as having a link to the cycle page was actually to completely forgo the mouse-over pop-up, and instead just make it a link.
What I believe MTGS has is something like markdown syntax, where they link a card image to a series of words and the site does all the complex coding for them. This isn't entirely convenient for us though, as it defeats the purpose of easy image pop-ups by tagging the nicks.
Does anyone here have an MTGS account that can describe what it is MTGS exactly does?
September 1, 2015 1:45 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #15
Curiosity got me... I just set up an account to see how they do it. It's kind of what I expected. Since the page can't be accessed without an account, here's a screen of the relevant passage.
September 1, 2015 2:42 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
Which makes no sense in terms of a convenience stand point. Why would you do all that work for a nickname when the purpose of a nickname is to make things easier?
September 1, 2015 4:36 p.m.
Triforce-Finder says... #17
I think it's not done for convenience, but for the sake of being able to give any text a rollover. Posting something and overlaying it with something the reader only sees on hovering, either for effect, or to avoid long-winded sentences.
It's basically more of an expression-enhancing tool than a convenience tool.
September 1, 2015 4:51 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #18
Which won't really work for this site however, as it doesn't give off the vibe of a classical forum where accuracy, proper grammar, and site etiquette and rules are highly governed. If it takes longer to do, people won't do it. I mean, we have the symbols, but yet most people won't touch them because they take long to do. They don't even really touch they comment functions at the top of the comment section (bold, link, img, symbols, etc).
EDIT: And you know, we don't really have a highly functional edit button either, so it gives a sort of, post right away vibe to this site.
Femme_Fatale says... #2
Now how would you, and who would, manage the nicknames?
August 24, 2015 2:40 p.m.