Card Costs vs Land Mana
TappedOut forum
Posted on Dec. 17, 2014, 5:24 p.m. by Sacrimon
This is a great feature, but highly inaccurate and pretty broken. It would be nice to see this be accurate and improved upon a bit with a working matrix for doing land calculations to card costs.
Femme_Fatale says... #3
He means coloured card costs aren't accurate in terms of the amount that is represented on the card vs. what the site records. Like how Near-Death Experience only comes up as one white mana instead of three. This issue was brought forth a few times but I don't think yeago noticed them.
Also potential to include coloured mana costs in card abilities like in Freed from the Real now that we have a specific code for mana symbols yeago can create a system to collect those symbols as well. Obviously, those mana symbols aren't on every card description in our database, but we can encourage the upgraded members to do the swap when submitting fixes.
December 17, 2014 6:01 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #4
He might also be referring to nonbasic lands showing up in the CMC bar graph? Not sure if that's intentional, I've found it slightly odd.
December 17, 2014 6:06 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #5
Also, the fact that nonbasic lands show up on the CMC chart is pretty lame too. Especially when one is trying to keep track of their 0-drop artfifacts.
December 17, 2014 6:07 p.m.
Unforgivn_II says... #6
Whoa. That was an impressive ninja. We even had the same topic
December 17, 2014 6:08 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #7
Very strange ninja haha, certainly an odd coincidence.
December 17, 2014 6:12 p.m.
Aside from what's been mentioned, the only thing I can think of is fetchlands not counting as mana sources in the graph. Of course, strictly speaking they don't produce mana, but I think most people would count a Polluted Delta as a source of B and U like any dual land.
December 17, 2014 6:15 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #9
I honestly think that fetch lands should NOT be on the graph. Because then you can judge whether or not you need less or more fetchlands to perfect that mana pie. I LOVE getting a perfect circle on my mana pie. The idea that a Polluted Delta to be represented as a 
and a 
source is wrong. Because Polluted Delta can also tutor up Steam Vents, Breeding Pool and the likes. So they technically count as EVERY colour since they have the potential to tutor up every colour with shock lands.
Now you may think, will it is relevant as dual lands in standard. But standard is only one format. We also have a lot of other formats here. It is also important to note that we aren't ALWAYS going to have fetch lands in standard, so making a function that only applies to a certain situation, is not a good idea.
December 17, 2014 6:25 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #10
Matching your colored mana source ratio to your colored symbol casting costs ratio is not going to give you an optimal mana base. It is a good starting place though.
To make sure you are able to cast all your spells on curve you need to run hypergeometric calculations. I see no way to carry these calculations over to the pie chart, just have to plug numbers. If this is what you are seeking here is a great rundown on how to go about it.
December 17, 2014 7:21 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #11
WAIT A MINUTE Rasta_Viking29!
My grade 12 "AP" math teacher said the things that were taught in that course were never going to get used in real life! That method MUST be the wrong method to choose!
December 17, 2014 7:30 p.m.
Strange, yea I mean some of the card costs don't add up correctly or aren't being recorded and things like non basic lands aren't being calculated correctly either it seems. I would have to analyze it a bit more to pick out specific cards that aren't being recorded properly. I'm not sure what algorithm you are using on the back end to calculate things like Fetch Lands which should count as a symbol of each color the same with any pain/scry/dual lands.
December 17, 2014 8 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #13
It is easy to tell. All the lands are being calculated correctly except the fetch lands which are not added. Oh, and colourless mana. If there was any land that wasn't, then it would be due to the information being incorrect for that particular card submission, which we do by hand. Like I said before, for the common card, multiple colour symbols of the same colour like shown in the white symbols for Near-Death Experience aren't counted. Only one is. Also coloured mana symbol costs in card abilities are not counted either due to the vast difference that users put in for them when submitted card submission forms. It isn't very complicated, as all the information that is taken from the cards can be altered in the card submission forms. In other words, it is simple addition to create the numbers. The images and percentages are the only things that are mathematically worthy,
December 17, 2014 8:48 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #14
Femme_Fatale silly of him/her to overlook the pursuit of perfect mana.
December 17, 2014 10:14 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #15
Also, what's up with the "slow" part on the pie charts? Like it's supposedly for lands that enter tapped, but I know there's lands in my decks that enter tapped that aren't calculated into that.
December 18, 2014 10:24 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #16
Yes it is for lands that ETBT. Link the decks that have these cards and I might be able to identify the issue.
December 19, 2014 3:39 a.m.
Take for instance this deck I just built. There are clearly 36 Black Symbols Plain as Day. Your graph is reporting 26
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/horde-master/
Fetches should count as 1 each of both symbolMana Confluence 1 each of each color symboletcBut normal cards aren't reporting either it seems, problem with multi-color perhaps? This would be a super useful feature if it worked properly.
December 21, 2014 11:45 a.m.
In this deck the White and Red card costs are correct. Mana Costs are not correct at all.
It should be:Fetches should count as 1 of each color of land it representsThings like Confluence or Nomad one of each colorScrys/Pains 1 of each colorUrborg BlackLand Costs (Should Be)Black Red White20 16 12
December 21, 2014 12:27 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #19
You are wrong Sacrimon, I just counted. They are all right.
December 21, 2014 1:02 p.m.
How am I wrong? Can you count?Black Symbols the PIE is saying 26. There are 36 Symbols.
Quantity Name Black Symbols
2x Athreos, God of Passage 24x Butcher of the Horde 44x Fate Unraveler 44x Master of the Feast 82x Triad of Fates 24x Hero's Downfall 82x Sign in Blood 44x Thoughtseize 4
Total 36December 21, 2014 6:52 p.m.
- Quantity Name Black Symbols
- 2x Athreos, God of Passage 2
- 4x Butcher of the Horde 4
- 4x Fate Unraveler 4
- 4x Master of the Feast 8
- 2x Triad of Fates 2
- 4x Hero's Downfall 8
- 2x Sign in Blood 4
- 4x Thoughtseize 4
- Total 36
December 21, 2014 6:57 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #22
It does not count the number of symbols, but rather the cards that are black. If you read my post, I covered all the issues you are currently having.
December 21, 2014 9:42 p.m.
It would be better if it did count the actual symbol costs which would give a more accurate representation of card cost to land mana ratios.
December 22, 2014 11:24 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #24
Like I said, read my posts, I already mentioned all the issues.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Can you elaborate a bit on what's wrong and what needs to be added?
December 17, 2014 5:49 p.m.