Just wondering what you guys think about mill post rotation. Will it get better or will it be slowed down to the point where it is not worth building around ? personally I think it will only get better especially in the first few weeks while people are muddling with new strategies. What are your thoughts ?
I'm not certain it will be "slowed down", as the best "mill" cards are in RTR block currently... however, I don't see many cards in Theros that make me think of mill, so I don't think it's going to add much to mill decks. (Lots still to spoil though!)
I was referring to other deck being slowed down lol you are right mill has only been getting better since RTR and cards like Thoughtseize and the new u/b PW will only make it stronger or so I hope.
U/B Control with a mill win-con seems viable at this point, barring any extreme mill-hate that remains to be spoiled. The U/B PW in Theros is bonkers in a mill strategy and we still have both Jace, Architect of Thought and Jace, Memory Adept in Standard. Also, a singleton Mind Grind could be used late-game to end it immediately.
And any excuse to use Thoughtseize is a good excuse.
Mill was only a reasonably strategy in one deck, and that deck is going away, as is its key card, Nephalia Drownyard . Its ability to mill your opponent each turn without spending a card was paramount. You could dedicate deck space to control, rather than mill.
With the loss of a reliable, turn-after-turn mill engine, mill will cease being a valid win condition and return to its role as a rule to end the game after a stall. Niche mill decks will still exist, but almost every other deck you could make "should" be stronger.
I should have wrote that as ''or will the format be slowed down to the point where its not building ?'' My mistake...
Nephalia Drownyard will certainly be missed but it is still possible to out your opponent by turn 8-9 with out them is that now fast enough ?
*"Mill was only a reasonably strategy in one deck, and that deck is going away, as is its key card, Nephalia Drownyard . Its ability to mill your opponent each turn without spending a card was paramount. You could dedicate deck space to control, rather than mill.
With the loss of a reliable, turn-after-turn mill engine, mill will cease being a valid win condition and return to its role as a rule to end the game after a stall. Niche mill decks will still exist, but almost every other deck you could make "should" be stronger."*
I don't agree. UB Control before Drownyard was winning with Memory Adept.
I also agree with zandl esper mill will cease but dimir mill will still flourish.on the back of jace.
Here is an example
T1 play Tome Scour 5 + there opening hand = 12 milled
T2 play Breaking 8 cards + there draw last turn = 9 (21 total)
T3 play dimir keyrune +1 there draw last turn = 1 (22 total)
T4 play Jace, Memory Adept mill 10 +1 there draw last turn = 11 (33 total)
T5 activate jace 10 mill +1 there draw last turn pay another jace for 10 more = 21 (54 total)
Well, Killabeetle, that's assuming your opponent does nothing to stop you or just doesn't kill you in that amount of time. Mill decks work better as control with a few powerful mill cards for the win. The likes of Tome Scour aren't really appropriate for a mill/control deck.
Using just a single Ashiok, and a single Jace, you can mill your opponent before they draw on their 8th turn. (7th if they have "tutored"/"drew" two additional cards in the game). That's with you going first, and them drawing first.
That requires casting Ashiok T3, and Jace T5.... leaving you with a lot of room for Thoughtseize , counters, removal, etc.... and if something happens, and you can't get the mill... Ashiok has removed a lot of possible Bombs that you can play for free, as an alternate win-con.
Note: With this Ashiok can mill the same number of card per turn as Nephalia Drownyard , but costs nothing once it's in play... and can mill without using the mana required by the Drownyard... and can start milling a turn earlier... and has a benefit of having additional win-con possibility built in.
.....I was unimpressed by Ashiok at first, but I just convinced my self of just how powerful he is.
Ashiok essentially replaces Drownyard. In two ways, Nephalia Drownyard 's better (lands are harder to destroy than PWs and it doesn't take up space in the deck), but that's where the advantages end. Ashiok requires just 3 mana to use (as compared to Drownyard's 3 + itself), you can use it for free each turn, and it gives you a potential alternate win-condition in the form of an ultimate ability.
Ashiok's going to be a great Planeswalker. I can't wait to use him.
To be honest, I don't think Mill is ever viable really (from a competitive standpoint). It's often not enough unless supported by heavy control and disruption. Modern has really good mill cards, and I barely ever see modern mill unless it's a kitchen table homebrew deck.
I mean, it's more viable now in standard since now we have Ashiok; and since we have Consuming Aberration and Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker available to us still, along with Jace, Memory Adept . But with Nephalia Drownyard (Which could mill an entire library in the right control deck) leaving us, It's a lot weaker. Everything else is so prone to removal and counterspells. Being a land, Nephalia Drownyard was very rarely able to be dealt with.
I, personally, see mill as a limited strategy, that really shines in draft if you have a dedicated deck.
This is just my opinion though.
Mill decks (unless combo) are always control decks. They are control decks with a few cards that win the game with mill.
Ashiok adds a ton of power to the strategy.
You're right, but a lot of people try to make just straight up mill decks without any sense of control outside of their hub. Especially new players. A good mill deck needs powerful, reusable mill (Jace or Ashiok), and a way to shut your opponent down. A lot of people don't realize that they need hand disruption too.
All I'm saying is not everyone puts it in a control shell, and some people try to throw it into a creature-heavy deck to balance it out.
Either way, it barely ever works in my experience. It's just too slow.
And newbies making decks that have no removal or control that try to mill don't really count. I'm talking about competitive.
This thread is talking about post-rotation. Nephalia Drownyard is leaving post-rotation and so Esper Control using that as an alternate win-con is irrelevant.
Esper Control with ND has been powerful for the better part of the season. We all know that, and I specifically stated that since it's leaving us, it's probably not a viable strategy because everything else is too easy to get around.
Jaklovsky used Psychic Spiral to mill out Wafo-Tapa in Dragon's Maze top 8 so I don't see why mill wouldn't be completely useless, especially with Traumatize being back in print...having said that idk if it will be a tournament winning deck on the pro tour
Milling is control. The fact of taking cards off your opponents deck is taking control of the scenario. I worked on a alternative modern mill deck that is actually very eficient. Its not supposed to be necesarly fast, it needs to be good at taking control. If you control de battlefield you dont need to hurry up and your opponent will lose. You can check out my mill deck here and you will see its not necesarly fast but very efective controling the opponents hand, creatures, deck and graveyard.
I dont think mill in standart will be as good as in modern and less people will be playing a deck lacking dedicated cards.