Thoughts on Jund Midrange?

Standard forum

Posted on June 17, 2014, 1:37 p.m. by harrydemon117

now that Temple of Malady is out, and the mana fixing is PERFECT for Jund, is it viable?

I know there's Jund "Monsters", but what if you drop Polukranos, World Eater for something like Vraska the Unseen ?

Rasta_Viking29 says... #2

Polukranos, World Eater > Vraska the Unseen > Reaper of the Wilds

The main draw is the upgraded removal suite when going Jund. The R/G creatures are already solid and fit well. Dreadbore helps with Desecration Demon and opposing Monster decks. Golgari Charm removes enchantments, regens to negate Supreme Verdict , and kills Master of the Waves. I would never look at replacing Polukranos, World Eater with Vraska the Unseen as they do completely different things and fill different roles. Going from Polukranos to Reaper of the Wilds is doable but a downgrade.

June 17, 2014 2:13 p.m.

harrydemon117 says... #3

How so? Reaper is better against decks that pack a lot of targeted removal and creatures due to hexproof-ing it, and the deathtouch ability is gravy vs bigger creatures. The scry that gets tacked onto Reaper for every other creature dying is good IMO, and more valued than "doing damage and getting counters on" Polly.

Not to mention the legendary clause of polly.....

My reasons for including Vraska the Unseen is that she is another "removal" spell that is also a win con. She kills ANYTHING so long as it's not Mutavault , and is good vs opposing planeswalkers.

Main creatures are Sylvan Caryatid , Courser of Kruphix , Stormbreath Dragon , and Reaper of the Wilds plus adding Xenagos, The Reveler and Vraska the Unseen for more "punch through" effects. I have toyed with adding in Sylvan Primordial in place of 1 Vraska the Unseen as well

June 17, 2014 4:51 p.m.

Rasta_Viking29 says... #4

I can't comment on your deck specifically but in general for Jund Midrange decks Polukranos, World Eater is better than Reaper of the Wilds

Some thoughts on the two creatures:

Reaper of the Wilds kind of just durdles in competitive play. If you are factoring in it's hexproof it becomes a 6 drop. After playing it you'll want to keep that mana up to protect it which hurts your tempo. The advantage it gains by having a pay for hexproof ability against black decks is typically offset by Lifebane Zombie and Blood Baron of Vizkopa . The clock presented to control decks is much friendlier than Polukranos's. This card is a trap, it appears to be much better than it preforms.

Polukranos, World Eater is a piece of cake to play on turn 3 because it's mono-green. It's monstrous ability is awesome. For 3 mana it can remove problem cards like Master of the Waves and Lifebane Zombie . Provides a great mana sink that can be used at instant speed to create favorable combat situations. Against control it can continue to add pressure to the board without playing additional threats by threatening swings of 7-9 the turn after it is played. Can remove chump blockers before combat to push damage through.

Vraska the Unseen is a great sideboard card. Against other midrange decks is where it shines. When control runs Detention Sphere and Banishing Light it is great as well but the common trend is going enchantment free making it only hit PW's. Against aggro and burn it is useless. Generally I view her as a 5 cost removal spell that also strips a piece of removal from the opponents hand. That helps Stormbreath Dragon or another creature stick for the kill. I would never plan on using her ultimate to win, it's happened once for me in over 100 games with her in my deck.

Just my 2 cents from 6 months experience playing G/R/x Midrange this Standard and avid following of the professional articles being published on the archetype. Sorry for the bad grammar and any incomplete thoughts in this post, I feel a little lazy :P

June 17, 2014 5:49 p.m.

harrydemon117 says... #5

Thanks for the insight. I agree that Polly has built in removal to deal with problem creatures and is easier to cast. I don't run Elvish Mystic in my build as I run Sylvan Caryatid so casting either one on turn 3 is still just as easy if not easier due to Sylvan Caryatid have hexproof itself. I don't know how many times I've heard Jund Monsters (or even Gruul Monsters) players moan when their turn 1-2 Elvish Mystic gets removed and they don't have a second green source in hand or a 4th land to play their monster on time.

Devour Flesh is a wash against either of course. but only MBD runs those main if it all anymore

June 18, 2014 8:41 a.m.

As far as Polukranos, World Eater v Reaper of the Wilds goes, I think it depends on the deck.

Poly is better in a Jund Monsters deck (or any deck with an aggressive creature strategy). Its susceptibility to removal is diminished somewhat by the fact that there are tons of other threats in the deck. It also works well with ramping strategies and allows a Monsters deck to squeeze in some removal, which is typically pretty limited.

Reaper, on the other hand, is better in a more grindy, removal-based Jund mid. Since threats are in much shorter supply in such a deck, it's important that they are able to defend themselves, and waiting until turn 6 isn't as big of a deal when you're spending early turns stabilizing. The Scry also shouldn't be overlooked and is a great ability in a deck with lots of removal.

June 18, 2014 4:44 p.m.

harrydemon117 says... #7

@ChrisHansonBiomancin:

Those have been my observations as well. I agree Polly is great in Jund/Gruul monsters as you are looking to play creatures on curve and kill your opponent with hasty big dudes, but the traditional Jund Midrange/control type decks are more grindy as you mentioned.

I've been toying with the idea of moving away from "ramp" and ditching Sylvan Caryatid for more removal/stabilizing things like Dreadbore or Anger of the Gods as all of our creatures would be x/4 or bigger.

Reaper of the Wilds has won me more games than I can remember due to being able to grant itself hexproof against control decks (they have to spend a verdict on a resolved one in order to kill it now) or else they're dead. Also being able to stack multiple scry triggers and digging for the card you need is huge. I once blocked with 2 Sylvan Caryatid and traded another creature for an opponent's just to stack 4 scry triggers on 2 x Reaper of the Wilds (total of 8) so I could dig for a removal spell (Hero's Downfall , Dreadbore , or Putrefy ) and kill his last remaining untapped creature so I could swing for game

June 19, 2014 12:03 p.m.

Anublet90 says... #8

I've been toying with the idea of moving away from "ramp" and ditching Sylvan Caryatid for more removal/stabilizing things

Can someone please tell me why Time to Feed is not used? I'm currently a casual player, but this is exactly what I use it for. In a Monsters deck it's practically a "destroy creature" anyway.

June 25, 2014 8:03 a.m.

harrydemon117 says... #9

@Anublet90:

There are a few reasons it doesn't see action in competitive play:

1) It is sorcery speed - have to spend 3 mana on your turn and not guaranteed to kill something

2) You have to have a creature in play to use it - things like Hero's Downfall do not have any "pre-requisites" which is why it is so good

3) You set yourself up for card disadvantage - if you go to cast it, and in response your opponent casts a removal spell/ability that removes your creature that you were going to use to "fight", you now have lost two cards to the one removal spell

June 25, 2014 8:43 a.m.

Anublet90 says... #10

Okay, that was very comprehensive, thanks!

Still, 1) and 3) seem like pretty situational downsides, there's practically bound to be a moment to cast it. Would running it as a 2-of be completely stupid, or just sub-optimal, assuming you run it alongside a 4-of Hero's Downfall or something?

June 25, 2014 8:57 a.m.

harrydemon117 says... #11

There are obviously better options out there and it really depends on your deck. For 3 mana, you can get Domri Rade that not only allows you to "fight", but also to gain card advantage and add an additional creature to your hand. Hero's Downfall is obviously the best spot removal in standard due to it being instant, "any" creature, and can also kill a planeswalker.

I usually run a 2-2 split of Dreadbore / Hero's Downfall myself as I don't like overloading a 3 drop slot with all of my removal (not to mention having to require BB for the casting cost in a 3 colored deck). I like versatility. I also run 2 x Abrupt Decay main deck and 2 x Mizzium Mortars because they're 2 drop removal spells but versatile (one can kill ANY nonland under 4 CMC and mortars CAN be a one sided board wipe).

Devour Flesh is another good option as well

June 25, 2014 9:07 a.m.

Flesh / Blood is a similar card to Time to Feed that is so much more versatile. It's either a one-sided fight or burn spell that hits the opponent/planeswalkers. Combined with Ghor-Clan Rampager it can be nuts.

June 25, 2014 12:56 p.m.

harrydemon117 says... #13

Right but the same reasons I listed above still apply. IF you somehow can cast this when your opponent is tapped out it's good otherwise you still lose the attrition battle, not to mention you still have to have a creature out to use it

June 25, 2014 1:13 p.m.

True but black removal is not always the answer and your opponent doesn't have to be tapped out to use fight effects. Standard Jund is typically not an attrition deck either. Double black is hard to hit for most Jund decks and there are cards like Blood Baron of Vizkopa who require R or G removal. Cards like Flesh / Blood , Setessan Tactics , and Pit Fight have their uses and are all better choices than Time to Feed . The first 2 of those also have other applications making them versatile in creature decks.

My Jund Monsters removal package:
2x Putrefy
2x Mizzium Mortars
1x Flesh / Blood
SIDE
1x Doom Blade
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Flesh / Blood
2x Golgari Charm
1x Vraska the Unseen

June 25, 2014 1:30 p.m.

I guess the 4x Domri Rade count as removal too.

June 25, 2014 1:33 p.m.

harrydemon117 says... #16

Well I don't run "monsters" per se, as I use Reaper of the Wilds , Vraska the Unseen instead of Polukranos, World Eater and Xenagos, God of Revels

June 26, 2014 9:15 a.m.

harrydemon117 says... #17

My removal package is:

MAIN deck:

2x Mizzium Mortars , 2x Abrupt Decay , 2x Putrefy , 2x Hero's Downfall , and 2x Dreadbore (and 2 main deck Vraska the Unseen )

SIDE:

3x Anger of the Gods 2x Doom Blade

I haven't come across too many Blood Baron of Vizkopa is my local meta so I haven't been worrying about him too much

June 26, 2014 9:20 a.m.

This discussion has been closed