Stormbreath Dragon vs Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 22, 2014, 9:42 a.m. by JakeHarlow
(Apologies if this is already a thread someplace.)
So, I've become aware of the defensible opinion that Stormbreath Dragon is of dubious value in the Standard metagame right now, what with the widespread adoption of Stoke the Flames , or other removal spells like Mardu Charm .
Those of this opinion point to Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker as a stronger alternative, especially as a beater for midrange and control decks. He has arguably more utility (other loyalty abilities), and is indestructible while a creature. However, his vulnerability to white renders him subject to Utter End , Banishing Light , Abzan Charm , and perhaps other spells.
I run 4x Stormbreath Dragon in my Mardu control deck at present, and it's done fairly well. What are your guys' opinions? Is Stormbreath a bad card right now? Is Sarkhan usually a better, stabler, and more utile choice?
I run a 3 to 2 split in favor of Dragon, because it is as you mention. Everyone is running either white and/or green (green devotion decks have a hard time with turn 4 dragon). The monstrosity isn't irrelevant either.
I still don't want to cut Sarkhan completely. He combos with Hornet Nest , is difficult to burn (5 loyality after drop) and is often times fine as an overcosted Flame Slash .
October 22, 2014 10:02 a.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #4
For the record, Mardu Charm doesn't hit Stormbreath Dragon as seemed to be implied in your post.
October 22, 2014 10:03 a.m.
TheHorse I think he meant the charm hits Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
As does Crackling Doom which is arguably my favorite card from Khans :)
October 22, 2014 10:07 a.m.
lol Abzan Charm toooo many charms lol
Regardless, there is ways to deal with both Stormbreath Dragon and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker in the current meta without much difficulty......
October 22, 2014 10:13 a.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #8
Mardu Charm doesn't kill Sarkhan unless you're having your opponent discard it.
In any case, I am personally favoring Stormbreath Dragon because of the popularity of Abzan. Forcing them to have Murderous Cut or Hero's Downfall over the rest of their removal, as well as swinging through Wingmate Roc seems very important to me. Stormbreath Dragon can also just continually block Siege Rhino , which might be important in some corner cases.
October 22, 2014 10:20 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #9
Whoops, I meant to be clearer on that. Stormbreath dodges Mardu Charm . He doesn't dodge Stoke the Flames or Sarkhan's second ability. Burn Away also works, but that's usually a not-so-atrocious trade in terms of mana at least.
Of a similar note, Jeskai Charm can hit Sarkhan for 4, yes?
I've been wanting to do the split between Sarkhan and the Stormbreaths, perhaps the 2:3 ratio that TexasDice is running. So it seems that some of you acknowledge Stormbreath's weaknesses while not outright dismissing his utility. I found Brian Kibler's recent comments on the card to be both revealing and a bit troubling, which is why I thought I'd open a discussion here.
What are the thoughts on running the full playset of Stormbreath Dragon inside a control shell with Thoughtseize and Mardu Charm to pluck out troublesome removal spells? Is it wise to bring in Sarkhan as a possible 2-of, or drop the dragon entirely? In the face of heavy removal, I just opt for more aggression and augment Stormbreath with a playset of Butcher of the Horde and a couple Goblin Rabblemaster .
October 22, 2014 10:21 a.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #10
Jeskai Charm can hit Sarkhan for 4 when it's a planeswalker, but your opponent has priority to put his +1 on the stack before you can do anything and since Planeswalker abilities have adding the loyalty counters as being the "cost" of the ability it means that hitting Sarkhan for 4 in response to his +1 will just put Sarkhan to 1, which largely seems a waste.
I don't know if you've seen Kibler's GP LA list, but it featured 2 Stormbreath Dragon s in the sideboard, maybe that's something worth considering.
Having said that, a mardu midrange/control deck and temur play completely differently, and it seems pretty reasonable that you can put yourself in a position where you're making your opponent top-deck relevant removal far more often than Temur can through hand disruption.
In general, Sarkhan seems actively mediocre against Abzan, which is really popular right now, where as Sarkhan is a bit better against Jeskai. I'd be ready to play both based on which deck is the boogie man of the week.
October 22, 2014 10:33 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #11
Very good points, TheHorse. I'll keep this in mind as the metagame develops.
Jeskai Charm isn't too good against Sarkhan unless he is low enough to die to it. Putting him to 1 loyalty usually won't cut it, I agree.
October 22, 2014 11:08 a.m.
problem with Stormbreath Dragon blocking Siege Rhino is you still take 4 to the face. pro white means it gets dealt 0 damage, meaning 4 will trample over.
October 22, 2014 1:14 p.m.
False..... Pro-Color creature vs Trample creature of that color will result in only "Above Lethal" damage being "Trampled" over.
In the case of Siege Rhino VS Stormbreath Dragon the dragon prevents all damage from the Rhino.
October 22, 2014 1:26 p.m.
Kage-no-Raito says... #14
Can't you deal 4 damage to Sarkhan in response to him entering the battlefield? Or am I missing something about the stack? I'm assuming he enters the battlefield, controller passes priority, opponent plays Stoke or Jeskai Charm, and it goes from there.
October 22, 2014 1:30 p.m.
Planeswalkers ALWAYS take priority. So essentially it would work like this.
- Sarkhan Enters play
- Opponent trys to deal 4 damage to Sarkhan at Instant speed.
- +1 Sarkhan in Response.
October 22, 2014 1:35 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #16
They both are great. Whichever one is better fluctuates depending on the cards you play around it and your meta.
Kage-no-Raito here's why that doesn't work:
Player A casts Sarkhan and passes priority, Player B passes back and Sarkhan resolves.
Player A now has priority (B can not cast spells). Player A adds one loyalty counter to Sarkhan, places it's ability on the stack and passes priority.
Player B can burn Sarkhan for 4 now but he will still have 1 loyalty when his ability resolves. This is the proper time to cast Hero's Downfall or Fated Conflagration to remove Sarkhan though.
October 22, 2014 1:46 p.m.
Kage-no-Raito says... #17
Rasta_Viking29 Thanks! I figured that out too after some quick research.
October 22, 2014 1:49 p.m.
zyphermage says... #18
Hero's Downfall or Fated Conflagration won't work though because after the +1 he is indestructible. You would have to wait until your turn.
October 22, 2014 2:52 p.m.
zyphermage says... #19
Basically once he lands he will at least hit you once unless he is hit with Crackling Doom or Abzan Charm .
October 22, 2014 2:54 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #20
zyphermage incorrect. It works just as I stated. Planeswalker abilities use the stack just like any other ability at which point you can respond to it with either of those spells.
October 22, 2014 2:55 p.m.
Sarkhan is really bad, if you have no blockers to protect it though. Random Tokens and spare Elvish Mystic s can't rally to attack your Stormbreath Dragon .
October 22, 2014 7:25 p.m.
zyphermage says... #22
Technically I wasn't incorrect about my second comment, though just wrong about the first one. I said after the +1 resolves he is indestructible and after someone casts Sarkhan they retain priority and get to active his ability. I knew planeswalker abilities go on the stack, but looking at his +1 it just says he becomes a 4/4 legendary flying haste indestructible dragon. You could respond with Hero's Downfall and kill it before he swings you are right. I read his +1 and assumed since it said 'becomes' that you could not prevent that part. I was thinking along the lines of someone for example activating a Mutavault . Normally in the case of a planeswalker though you cannot prevent the ability from going off unless you Stifle effect somehow. The 2 cards I suggested also do work though as well.
October 22, 2014 7:44 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #23
If you are referring to turning Mutavault into a creature, you can respond to that.
October 22, 2014 10:04 p.m.
zyphermage says... #24
It had to do more with you cannot prevent the ability going onto the stack than whether you could respond to it, to have the desired effect. I never was trying to claim you cannot respond, just whether it would be effective.
In this case responding to Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker +1 with a Hero's Downfall would kill it and have the desired effect and essentially prevent it being a dragon. Mutavault probably was a poor example because what response gets rid of a land before it is a creature, not many anyways?
October 22, 2014 10:34 p.m.
Im playing 3 SBD main and 1 in the SB. I used to run a 2-2 split with Sarkan. But my experience was that he was a liability against Abzan while SBD was winning games for me there. The other MUs dont really matter if Im playing Sarkan or not so SBD was a natural choice in a Abzan meta.
xGhostx says... #2
I run a very solid Mardu Midrange build (can be found on my profile :), feel free to look comment and +1) and am running 2x Stormbreath Dragon in the Sideboard. I feel that is his home right now in the current meta to help out against the control heavy White splash X and Y decks.
I run 2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker mainboard along with 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor as I just see more practical uses in the meta for game 1 out of these 2 then running Stormbreath mainboard. When you get both Sorin and Sarkhan online thats a very fast clock that your opponent is on to draw an answer. All the while you are gain mass amounts of life from all the lifelink stabilizing yourself for if they can find an answer.
October 22, 2014 9:56 a.m.