It might be the best card in Standard, but due to the fact that UW wasn't a guild, the decks running it have to have a little mana difficulty to do it, and so it actually stretches many decks, like Esper Control, which is basically Grixis dropping red to run Teferi's, which isn't great Even Jeskai Control, to get a landbase that works, needs to go heavy on red in the base, which leads to them having less of their more important colors.
I could even see just Hallowed Fountain reprint to see it be back in full steam in Standard, but as is it is kept in check without the Azorius Guild to back it up.
November 9, 2018 8:32 a.m.
In my opinion, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, while he surely is a great planeswalker, or card in general, should not be banned for now. UWx control is not a dominant force in the metagame right now.
But I can see only two futures with the upcoming set:
There are no good cards in the azorius guild. Anything could be a serious problem.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria will rule the format.
A control deck as the best deck wouldn´t even be a problem, but I really hated the "pure" controldeck, which only wincon was to shuffle Teferi back into the deck and mill the opponent with it. A control deck should always have a real wincon. It´s ok to win on turn 20, but not on turn 50 via decking. Especially in standart which should attract new players to the game. This has nothing to do with a fun game.
My forecast: Teferi, Hero of Dominaria will be banned after the next expansion. Even if Wizards hates to ban control cards.
November 9, 2018 9:39 a.m.
Honestly, I will give Wizards little respect on this one, dependent on how they make the Azorius Guild, and the relation to the rest, Teferi could be more powerful than Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but like Jace, I doubt they will ban him even if they should until a year after.
November 9, 2018 9:47 a.m.
Teferi is currently very much limited in the number of decks that can play him due playable lands for manabases. Jan. 2019 however he could become a huge problem. When all ten Shock lands and all ten Check lands will be in Standard at the same time it could be totally different because then there's no restriction of playable lands for manabases; that's what is currently keeping Teferi back.
Esper for instance becomes a ridiculously powerful shard for Teferi when have access to Hallowed Fountain and Godless Shrine. Teferi could become the next $90 card in Standard due to it being such a powerful card and Planeswalker. It's $50 right now and it's only consisently played in one deck. He could do roughly the same thing that Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip did when Battle lands and Fetch lands were in BFZ/OGW Standard together which resulted in crazy four colored $700+ competitive decks that all played Jace, shooting Jace's price up to $93 for a time.
The biggest problem and in my opinion a reason to ban Teferi is he has a monopoly on Control which will most likely get worse in Jan. 2019 (if you're playing current competitive Control, most likely Jeskai, you're playing Teferi). In Standard that would be fine if Teferi wasn't a $50 card, but he is and that's a huge problem. You also want 3-4x of him, most likely 4x, in your deck which is another problem. Wizards is not going to ban a $50 card in Standard, that will never happen with their current greed above everything else company strategy :(
I don't think a ban is necessary now, however I think another errata is. Teferi should not be able to tuck itself into your own library. His -3 loyalty text needs to say "put another target nonland permanent". Another target nonland permanent allows you to still tuck a nonland permanent you control just not Teferi.
November 9, 2018 10:03 a.m.
They can't errata him like that, they said they wouldn't after Time Vault and its issues with erratas, I think something like they would only update thing sto make sense, such as errataing every land/mana source to not say 'add to mana pool', because they dropped the mana pool. Nerfing cards isn't their intention.
The only example I have found of them breaking this is with Marath, he could make infinite 0/0s for free, so they errata'd him, but said it was due to their not being enough space for his reminder text not to do that.
November 9, 2018 10:07 a.m.
As others have mentioned... I think he will be banned after the next release and after a few weeks of players complaining of how he makes the game slow, boring, and not fun at all, especially with the perfect mana-base. I prob won't be playing standard once that happens (if he's not banned). Because Azorius control (with or without an extra color) will be the most powerful deck in standard, and the game will suck. Period.
November 9, 2018 11:17 a.m.
Planeswalkers that are not named JTMS are never banned and even it was more collateral damage than anything else. After Gideon was not banned despite being the best card in standard for its whole stay in the format, Teferi will get similar treatment. WOTC needs their poster boys!
November 9, 2018 11:42 a.m.
In my opinion he should be banned with the next release. The game will strech too the point that it loses all the fun to play standard.
November 9, 2018 12:15 p.m.
Honestly Jund seems like a good counter, with what we have, a good landbase strapped on and I think that the deck will be sweet, Rabblemaster, Trophy, and so much good grindy value.
November 9, 2018 12:36 p.m.
Whenever I see a discussion on control cards, the argument for the card's banning always seems to be "[format] is not fun with the card in it." Personally, I think this is an incredibly poor justification, and I generally feel it reads: "[format] will not be as fun for me with the card in it."
Cards should not be banned because some players find them unfun to play against. It's the player's responsibility as deckbuilders to prepare for these likely cards and have a response.
Cards should be banned when they break the metagame, usually evidenced by a disproportionate dominance of that particular card at competitive events. Teferi does not currently meet that requirement for being banned. Yes, it is almost a must-include in any control deck, but, as others have mentioned, there are some challenges to his use.
How about once Hallowed Fountain and other Azorius control cards are released? Who knows. It's possible UWx will run wild, and Teferi's banning is the only reasonable way to prevent 30+% of the meta being UWx builds.
However, don't forget, we're also getting Gruul and Rakdos in the next set--two very powerful aggro Guilds. Gruul's ramp and large creatures can be difficult for control, particularly with Green's "can't be countered" cards. Rakdos, particularly alongside some of the Red Boros cards, might make for an extremely dangerous BR aggro deck.
Yes, we will be getting some new cards that will make UWx more Teferifying, but we're also getting new threats. I think it's a bit too early to speculate on his future status.
November 9, 2018 12:53 p.m.
cdkime if all we know is the shocklands, god dang will Jund be playable. Imagine Curving turn two Assassin's Trophy into turn three Legion Warboss, grinding more and more damage out, turn after turn of efficient removal, and when they sweep the field you get Vraska, Golgari Queen or any other sweet walker and just keep going on the value train of life.
Worried about graveyards? Deathgorge Scavenger is basically standard legal Scavenging Ooze that costs 1 more and nothing after that. Exploring for card advantage, some sweet burn to close out the game, all of it.
Point is, Standard will be more powerful as a whole, Teferi will, but not just Teferi, and the metagame will adjust to powerful cards as it always does and will.
November 9, 2018 1:03 p.m.
November 9, 2018 1:24 p.m.
A slow azorius control build could imo be held in check with a nice izzet build with Niv-Mizzet, Parun and Banefire. There's only the question, how would this build stand against the rest of the meta.
I'm really not that big of a standart fan, but the format is pretty nice since Guilds of Ravnica. I'm really curious who will win this weekend. Maybe after these two days we will already have more knowledge and data to discus the Teferi question.
One problem I see, especially in tournament magic, is, that the "real pros" tend to gravitate towards control decks.
November 9, 2018 2:47 p.m.
Jund is where real pros go... or humans... I wonder why humans hasn't taken a stand in Standard, Dredge, Golgari-Based Midrange lists, UWx Control, UBx Control, Storm, Mono-Red Burn, Boros Burn, Merfolk, Mill, Elves, etc. etc. etc. but no Humans... or Affinity.
November 9, 2018 3:30 p.m.
SynergyBuild - I think Humans probably have never made a splash in Standard because they're the worst "tribe" in game.
Wizards does not go about designing a set for Human tribal. It's either a more interesting race--Dinosaurs, Vampires, Elves, Slivers, Goblins, etc.--or a class--Wizards, Soldiers, Allies, etc.--that's at the forefront. I can't think of a single time Humans, on their own, were the chosen tribe. Because of that, there are usually a couple solid humans in any given rotation, but not enough options and utilities to really design a deck around.
Humans are kind of like the million monkeys banging on a million keyboards and eventually producing Hamlet. Wizards made enough of them over the years that an incredibly powerful deck accidentally came into existence.
November 9, 2018 3:47 p.m.
Yeah, because Thalia's Lieutenant and Champion of the Parish, two of the best 'tribal' cards, giving a huge amount of boost to a normally aggressive tribe, never were something that Wizards wanted to print.
November 9, 2018 3:49 p.m.
I never said they didn't print powerful Human cards--to the contrary, I said that every rotation there's a couple strong Humans, but not a significant mass to make them a viable option in that particular format.
However, a couple strong cards a set builds on itself. Champion of the Parish might not have very many viable friends in its Standard rotation, but put him in a format with Meddling Mage, Mantis Rider, etc. and suddenly your Champion of the Parish is a terror to behold.
I did make one slight error in my initial post--Innistrad featured Humans as one of the supported tribes, juxtaposed against the creatures of the night. Still, besides a couple powerful Humans in that set, I don't think there were enough to make them all that competitive, but I'd have to do a bit of looking into that to verify.
November 9, 2018 4:02 p.m.
Actually, both Innistrad and Shadows over Innistrad blocks.
November 9, 2018 4:13 p.m.
It's no longer "should he be banned" but when will he be banned.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is degenerate and takes away the fun of the game for new players.
There is no "quick fix" to remove him once he enters play for the majority of decks and he costs $90 AUD here in Australia and usually when that price point is reached it kinda proves to me that a card is OP.
Yet another failure by the WotC R&D team. No-one wants to spend $400+ on a Standard deck just to be competitive...especially given the revised rotation schedule.
Banned by Christmas - 100 percent.
November 10, 2018 4:06 a.m.
Day1 at the pro tour saw 8 % UWx Control and about 4 % Jeskai Midrange (don't know if Teferi is in there too).
November 10, 2018 8:05 a.m.
Yes he is included in jeskai midrange. ——————————————————— Teferi is not going to be banned by Christmas. I doubt he gets a standard ban at all. Assassin's Trophy (among other cards) keeps teferi in check. Tapping out and having a two mana spell kill your planeswalker is a very bad exchange. I personally enjoy playing against teferi decks. Control mirror is one of the more skill intensive archetype match ups in standard and I find it fun. There are at least two sides to the teferi is or isn’t fun argument.
Winning on turn fifty isn’t usually what happens with no win con teferi. A lot of games end around turn 15 - 20 because the opponent isn’t a moron and knows, when I don’t have any lands I should concede. It’s the opponent who decides how many turns they are going to play.
November 10, 2018 9:42 a.m.
Oof that formatting got goofed up
November 10, 2018 9:43 a.m.
Legendary_penguin_of_death is speaking with a lot of legendary, peguiny, deadly truth right there, I highly doubt that Teferi will be banned in Standard, however I wouldn't even be that surprised in modern if there was a banning, but much, much further down the line, only if control becomes more powerful, but that is just a guess into The Abyss.
November 10, 2018 10:20 a.m.
I don't see that Teferi will ever be banned in modern. Modern right now has the tools and inherently different decks so that imho no deck can't truly opress the format.
You can't tune control to have a good game against dredge, tron, burn, midrange, storm, etc. at the same time. Modern is ah cycling format. The best deck this week can fall behind in a couple of weeks and be the best deck again a couple more weeks.
November 10, 2018 1:06 p.m.
Yeah, I didn't mean it would be banned now, but as many powerful engines are, such as one that draws cards, ramps, remove threats, and wins the game, for effectively 3 mana, if there are cards in modern that could eventually be banned given more tools, I think Teferi is a possibility, not likely, but more likely than banning in standard.
November 10, 2018 1:58 p.m.
Question for now: Will Teferi, Hero of Dominaria win Pro Tour: Guilds of Ravnica?
My guess is no.
November 10, 2018 2:55 p.m.
Should he be banned? Yes he most definitely should. Having card draw and an additional two mana on a planeswalkers +1 is extremely broken. Especially on a planeswalker that only costs five mana. Card draw draws into more removal, and plus two mana allows you to play more removal. Simple as that, he is broken, ban him. Just because he only sees play in one “meta” deck right now does not mean he is not breaking the meta, almost no cards that B/W control used rotated out, The only meaningful card that went out was Fumigate, which can easily be replaced with River's Rebuke. While maybe not as powerful still gets the job done. B/W control is still a viable deck and is still powerful, red is not needed what-so-ever in a Control deck.
November 10, 2018 8:08 p.m.
Edit: Red is not needed in the jeskai Control deck that is present as of this standard right now
November 10, 2018 8:10 p.m.
Ummm... so what do you replace with all of the single-target removal, Seal Away can't replace Justice Strike, Lightning Strike, Lava Coil, Shock, and Shivan Fire, heck, it can barely replace any of them.
November 10, 2018 8:13 p.m.
Lightning Strike, Shock, Lava Coil, and Shivan Fire aren’t needed and frankly I don’t get why anyone would want these in a Control deck. If you really must play a 3rd color black has better options, but anyway. These all can be replaced with bounce spells such as Blink of an Eye, more counterspells and/or if not already in the deck, Opt. As for more cheap removal, There is Baffling End to get rid of more early plays and some decks may be able to make Isolate work for any pesky one drops. Also a great early blocker is Shore Keeper it can keep early Aggro decks at bay for a time if it is not removed immediately and can generate card advantage late game. Thoughtbound Phantasm could also work if running lots of surveil.
November 10, 2018 9:10 p.m.
why Wouldn’t you want kill spells in a control deck. I’m very confused.
Baffling End, Isolate, and Shore Keeper? These are not cards control ever wants to play. Baffling End is playable I guess as a one or 2 of in the sideboard (for mono white or Boros Aggro), but the other two are completely and utterly not playable.
November 10, 2018 9:54 p.m.
When did I ever say “do not play kill spells in your control deck”? I said that the red removal in standards jeskai control deck is not needed because there are other blue and white cards that can take their roles. Red does give you access to more removal but it is not necessary.
Some control decks like to run four-ofs of cheap early blockers. Take Wall of Omens in modern for example. It protects you and makes you lose no card advantage. Some control decks do like to run cards like this. In this standard Shore Keeper is the closest thing to that. I also said some decks MIGHT be able to make Isolate work, not “every control deck with white should run isolate”
November 10, 2018 10:13 p.m.
I normally don't chime in on Standard card discussions because I only play Modern. But.... Teferi, in a vacuum, may even be better than JTMS. If I'm building control in Modern, I am strongly leaning towards Teferi over Jace.
He costs 3. Any way people want to spin it, it doesn't matter. He costs 3. Period.
Gideon Ally of Zendikar is a phenomenal card. But I don't think comparing him to Jace and Teferi is quite accurate. But again, I don't play standard.
As to whether he should be banned, ennnhhhhh... probably not but they banned friggin Reflector Mage for God's sake. A 2/3 for 3 that bounces..... maybe the lamest banning ever.
I hope they ban Teferi though so he slides to about 10 bucks
November 10, 2018 10:13 p.m.
Look, All I’m saying is people are underestimating teferi, I don’t understand how blue/white Control lost popularity after rotation and I definitely don’t understand why for some reason people think that blue/white Control needs to become jeskai.
It makes no sense to me as few cards that blue/white Control ran rotated out. If you really felt like the deck needed a third color because you don’t like the removal available to you then that’s fine, but you should be playing esper, not jeskai. You get so much more in black then you do red. Vraska's Contempt for recurring threats and planeswalkers. Thought Erasure for a turn 2 powerful discard spell. Connive/Concoct for a steal removal spell and possible recursion if needed. Notion Rain is just a good draw spell. Not to mention Cast Down is a solid two mana kill spell.
You get so much more out esper then you do jeskai. So I don’t understand why jeskai is seeing so much more play then esper or blue/white control
November 10, 2018 10:32 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC that is some hard truth right there. Teferi does basically reduce his own casting cost when he resolves and he is very similar to JTMS in terms of abilities.
Gideon was an aggro focused card so we should not be comparing him to teferi or JTMS.
November 10, 2018 10:37 p.m.
I'm guessing Jeskai is temporary. But isn't there a really nasty new 3 mana sweeper?
Once you guys get your Godless Shrines and Hallowed Fountains, Esper will pick up.
I made some predictions about this block but have been wrong (ish)
November 10, 2018 10:46 p.m.
Deafening Clarion, tactical sweltering suns that you can cycle and costs 1WR.
November 10, 2018 10:51 p.m.
It’s definitely good but I wouldn’t say the card alone makes jeskai worth running.
November 10, 2018 10:53 p.m.
I actually respect where you are coming from, but I disagree with a lot of your points. I tried UW control for a while and it just wasn’t good enough against aggro. I think that if control became a significantly higher percentage of the meta game UW would become playable but for now it doesn’t quite have the ability to stabilize against the ultra fast aggro deck that you can see cleaned up pretty well at the pro tour today. UW would be most likely favored in game one against jeskai, but post board niv mizzet is really really annoying to deal with.
So as of right now jeskai for clarion or esper for Ritual of Soot is definitely the way to go to have game against aggro. Just Cleansing Nova is too slow against the white/red White Aggro that can win on turn 4. Settle isn’t as viable as it used to be because so many decks are running X spells. Ie March of the Multitudes and from the side Banefire
November 10, 2018 11:43 p.m.
Why choose between Esper and Jeskai? With the next expansion I'll see 4C/5C color. There shouldn't be a problem to build these manabases with all the shock- and checklands available.
November 11, 2018 3:39 a.m.
Eledain yeah that is true, I can see a 4 or 5 color superfriends deck possibly popping up in the future. Also Chamber Sentry is an unending 5 damage unless you exile it. We could be in a very mana flexible standard very soon.
November 11, 2018 5:03 a.m.
Not Really, I think you misudnerstand Shock/Check, they aren't that efficient, Shock/Fetch isn't even that good.
November 11, 2018 7 a.m.
If the reward to go 4C/5C should be big enough, then shock / check should be enough to support that imho.
November 11, 2018 7:39 a.m.
4C is hard enough in Eternal formats.
No fetches in Standard
November 11, 2018 2:28 p.m.
The big difference between standart and eternal, in standart you have the time to durdle around a bit, but in eternal you need your mana on the spot.
November 11, 2018 2:47 p.m.
Eledain it is a little strange you keep writing standart. It's spelled standard. Not that big of a deal, just a little annoying.
It depends on the speed of a format, not whether or not it is eternal or rotating. Standard right now is aggressive, between Boros, Mono-Red, and Drakes being one of if not the best deck in standard, Every deck needs mana fast to get their gameplan on, durdling in this standard is a death sentence.