New standard contender?
Standard forum
Posted on April 14, 2014, 9:12 p.m. by Arsene
After the latest previews I feel convinced that Rakdos aggro can be a tier 1 or 1.5 deck. The things that made me say this are Mana Confluence
, Gnarled Scarhide
, and Master of the Feast
. Putting these in an aggro shell with some other 2 power one drops, Pain Seer
, Herald of Torment
, Thoughtseize
, Dreadbore
, and Lightning Strike
I think you could make a deck that would have a reasonable shot at beating anything. For the sake of argument let's say for this deck to be a success I think it should have at least a 25% chance of winning any given match against the usual contenders like esper or mbc. I know there's no decklists in this forum, so if anyone feels compelled to see exactly what I'm thinking feel free to go to my profile and look at Mogis' Army.
I thought about that, but it feels insane to play black without Thoughtseize . The card will get you some free wins when people keep some borderline hands and they can both clear a path for your crew to get in. I also like it because I can see this deck just having zero chance game 1 against UWx because of jace and verdict.
April 14, 2014 9:16 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #5
What do you mean Chief? Dreadbore is awesome cheap removal and barely sacrifices speed. And Thoughtseize is great in aggro shells because it picks away your opponents big creatures, removal spells, and sweepers so you don't have anything standing in the way. I really wouldn't consider them "control elements" either. It's removal and disruption, both of which are great in aggro decks.
April 14, 2014 9:17 p.m.
idk i'm not feeling it. Most of those cards will just end up that mean R/W/B tempo control bull crap/ Rakdos Minotours, which aren't tier 1 by any means. Rakdos aggro will still be mediocre.
April 14, 2014 9:19 p.m.
I also think something like Polukranos could blow you out too hard without Dreadbore . If I were to cut those I'm incline to think I would just add a bit more reach with something like Magma Jet . You also get access to Sire Of Insanity , Slaughter Games , and Duress against control from the board. Maybe rakdos return, but I'm inclined to not include it because I'd only want 22 lands and it would be hard to get a return to a decent size with that few lands.
April 14, 2014 9:20 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #9
I honestly feel mono-black aggro is better for consistency reasons.
April 14, 2014 9:34 p.m.
One of the biggest reasons I like the red splash is because you get access to so much more in the board, but I've strongly considered mono black aggro too. I'd feel more comfortable running Mutavault
then.
April 14, 2014 9:39 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #11
Yeah, Madcap Skills , Dreadbore , Lightning Strike and Spike Jester are all awesome cards. But Mutavault alone is often worth it.
April 14, 2014 9:55 p.m.
Something like the following will most certainly be a deck come Journey. You get to run eight two power one drops and a bunch of bestow to make it resilient to removal. One drop into Spike Jester is just such a beating for the decks in the metagame right now. Burn and Spiteful Returned will be almost impossible to stabilize against when combined with a fast start. And the mana is nearly silky smooth for hitting the colored sources you need, 18 of 19 for T3 BB and 12 reds means you'll nearly always have one by T3 as well.
4 Rakdos Cackler , 4 Tormented Hero , 4 Gnarled Scarhide , 4 Herald of Torment , 4 Spike Jester , 4 Spiteful Returned , 4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Lightning Strike , 2 Dreadbore , 2 Shock , 2 Thoughtseize
4 Blood Crypt , 4 Mana Confluence , 4 Mutavault , 6 Swamp , 4 Temple of Malice
April 14, 2014 10:08 p.m.
That's actually 12 two power 1 drops, which is what I was thinking as well. I favored Master of the Feast
over Lifebane Zombie
and Pain Seer
over Spiteful Returned
, but we came up with a similar list.
April 14, 2014 10:31 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #14
I'm not liking Master of the Feast at all. Giving your opponent a chance to draw into their answers doesn't seem like a great strategy.
Anyways, I feel like control isn't a problem for Rakdos since there are tons of guys like Spike Jester and Ash Zealot that absolutely wreck them. Getting 2-for-1'd by Supreme Verdict is something you can easily come back from and you have Skullcrack and Slaughter Games on the side. Your problem matchups will be GR and MUD, both of which are almost as fast but have way more explosive endgames. Selesnya aggro is a problem too since their 1- and 2-drops outclass Rakdos'. At the end of the day, I'm thinking tier 2.
April 14, 2014 10:39 p.m.
Oops, yes 12. But my thoughts on those picks.
Master of the Feast - hyper aggro looses to some very specific cards when they are played on time. I just don't see a few extra points of power, that doesn't have an immediate board impact being worth pushing your opponent into their outs.
Pain Seer - the more bestow the better I like the odds at getting the Grizzly Bears that wants to be Dark Confidant into combat. Spiteful Returned just seems way more on message and gives the deck some great reach though while asking a lot less.
April 14, 2014 10:42 p.m.
My hope is that Master of the Feast puts on a fast enough clock when they're already getting hit that they'll only draw a couple cards off of it and it'll be too late by the time they have an answer, but still good things to consider. Also, thank you everyone for entertaining this idea and for those who did respect I appreciate how everyone has done so in a productive and respectful manner.
April 14, 2014 11:24 p.m.
Also, I definitely feel like this deck should curve out with Desecration Demon
, maybe as a 2 of. If they sac a creature then other beaters will be getting through, truly taking advantage of him in an aggro shell.
April 14, 2014 11:25 p.m.
I think Atheros, god of passage will provide this deck the resilience it needs to contend with control. Whether it will be orzhov, mythic or rakdos remains to be seen but i think plain orzhov would work well. You get Underworld Coinsmith , Cartel Aristocrat , Soldier of the Pantheon , Precinct Captain , Xathrid Necromancer , Imposing Sovereign , Tormented Hero , Mogis's Marauder , Thrill-Kill Assassin , Pain Seer , Sin Collector (all of whom are humans), as well as Gnarled Scarhide and black's removal and disruption suite. Red gives the deck burn and arguably better removal, but this seems more resilient to control and doesn't lose much power from the lack of red. Someone may also do something silly with mogis and atheros, using big dudes like Desecration Demon to hammer the opponent. Sounds brutal. Now we also get Mana Confluence so we can essentially run up to 16 black/white sources, freeing up room for Mutavault s.
April 14, 2014 11:44 p.m.
I strongly considered bw as well, but felt like the white splash was mostly for atheros and soldier. The rest of the options seemed underwhelming.
April 15, 2014 12:45 a.m.
Another concession we'd have to make is that we just lose if mbc resolves a Drown in Sorrow . A couple Duress can be brought in for that match too.
April 15, 2014 12:52 a.m.
Mogis's Marauder needs to be MB in any B/x aggro deck. It's infinitively better then both Master of the Feast and Lifebane Zombie in the cmc3 slot. In my experience with playing the Mono-Black Aggro(and against Rakdos) the marauder is the reason you play the deck over a Red based aggro deck. The marauder gives you free wins like nothing else, and you only really need to side him out against MBC, in all other matchups he is good to great.
April 15, 2014 4:24 a.m.
Josh Silvestri released a rakdos list today on Channel Fireball that's 6 cards off of mine. Wow that feels amazing to have my view validated by someone so good (this is not at all meant to discredit people who disagree with the deck, I'm just excited).
April 16, 2014 3:48 p.m.
I still feel like running discard and control in a deck that wants to win by T4 is a bit silly because it's taking away chances to play creatures.
April 16, 2014 4:03 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #24
But if that discard is taking away a Supreme Verdict ...
April 16, 2014 4:40 p.m.
That would Thoughtseize useful against about 25% of decks - under half, and therefore sideboard material.....
April 16, 2014 4:42 p.m.
In almost every matchup a control deck can win extremely quickly with great ease. The biggest problem is control (which is a MASSIVE threat). However, control doesn't make up the majority of them eta (its usually around 25-33%), and therefore you're not that likely to run into supreme V.
April 16, 2014 4:44 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #27
But Thoughtseize does so much more, from picking that roadblock Polukranos, World Eater to ruining your opponent's mull to 5 or taking one of MBD's removal spells or MUD's Thassa, God of the Sea . It's so versatile and can put the aggro deck way ahead. And anyways, it's another T1 play if you don't have a 1 drop creature.
ChiefBell says... #2
You wouldnt run control elements like thoughtseize or dreadbore in an aggro deck USUALLY. You wouldnt want to sacrifice speed
April 14, 2014 9:13 p.m.