Lol balance
Standard forum
Posted on Oct. 28, 2014, 10:17 p.m. by Chadtherest00
So I was watching yet another grand prix. Good part femur made it to the finals, bad part Jeskai wins again
https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=1au5j51qh#/watch?v=VUD5Vmwk2Kg
JonathanSamurai says... #3
Wedges and Dual color sets are naturally stronger. People just figured out how to exploit Jeskai and ran with it. They will probably need it in some way with the next set in some way.
October 28, 2014 10:36 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #4
*nerf in some way. Damn iPhone auto-correct lol
October 28, 2014 10:37 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #6
Lol or what are you talking bout vamp I dont get you
October 28, 2014 10:46 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #7
I think it maybe all the acess to the burn spells.
October 28, 2014 10:47 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #9
No one get's me brah. I'm talking about WOTC being hesitant to retry 3 colored sets because it either goes really good or really bad. Power levels are hard to keep in check when you're working with 3 colored factions.
October 28, 2014 10:48 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #10
That was a savage beating by Jeskai. It's the fact that it has absolutely sick matchups against basically every other three-color strategy. The combination of value aggressive and evasive creatures (I'm looking at Mantis Rider and Ashcloud Phoenix here, but also Goblin Rabblemaster ) and the very best burn spells in the format (Jeskai Charm and the functional burn of Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker are not meaningless here) means it races everything favorably, with the occasional exception of mono-red. Its access to hard removal like Banishing Light and Suspension Field also means quite a lot in the threat-answering department. Brimaz, King of Oreskos is also an extremely relevant sideboard card. The expansive burn suite of Jeskai means that other three-color decks can't really tap their mana too often, since they risk an easy push into burn range, as we've seen in this Grand Prix Final.
Finally, let us recall that Jeskai tempo is a deck that demands prompt answers from the opponent each turn, either in the form of removal or the laying down of an opposing threat. even going toe-to-toe with Jeskai is dangerous, since 1-for1'ing repeatedly against it is fueling either a big Dig Through Time or Treasure Cruise . The deck has the best burn, arguably the most above-curve creatures, most of the best hard removal, and the best card advantage. It has all the right tools to succeed in the metagame and I dont see many other net-decks having a realistic chance of generating a psotitive win spread against it.
TL;DR -- Lol balance
October 29, 2014 12:05 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #11
I don't think the deck is ridiculously strong, it is just that a successful formula was found early and the meta has yet to adjust.
October 29, 2014 12:55 a.m.
Yeah it's so imbalanced that Jeskai keeps winning all these GPs and the Pro Tour.
Oh that's right, it didn't.
Of that last 3 major events, Pro Tour Khans, GP LA and GP Stockholm, Jeskai Tempo has won one of them. Hell, it didn't even top 8 GP LA at all. Granted you'll probably find a bunch more in the top 16, but of the 24 top 8 decks represented Jeskai Tempo is 5 of them - it's not even the largest represented deck type, Abzan Midrange is. That GP Stockholm finish you're harping on has 6 other different decks in the Top 8 that had to beat a room of over a 1,000 players that should be roughly 20% Jeskai Tempo if the average is in keeping.
Instead of knee-jerk reactions, try looking at the bigger picture next time.
October 29, 2014 1:10 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #13
Lol no sir they won 3/4 scg that have happened, in pro tour Kahn it had a nice seat at the finals, Gp la top 8 I think it was said there was two Jeskai decks that the mono red beat. I think before you tell anyone to take a look at the big picture you should do some research.
October 29, 2014 1:25 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #14
@Commander yeah man I know what your saying. I had a semi good idea of decks with green in it should main sesstian tactics to counter the early mantis rider. With knuckle blade going 5/5 or hier of the wilds with death touch, Pharika's chose, or other death touch options. I think is the most effect way. Only problem I factored in there was getting struck by lighting strike, magma jet, and more recently magma spray.
October 29, 2014 1:29 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #15
@Jake lol I know right with access to everything. I'm surprised you came along, usually people disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. It's cause the designer of Jeskai. Idk his name I'll look him up later. Had nothing but the intentions of breaking the meta game and making his deck the best. And why not he went with the three colors that have access to burn, draw, counters, and banishment, nothing but the best when your dealing with the best
October 29, 2014 1:35 a.m.
Here are the links to the Top 8 decks from those three events if you don't believe me.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8379&f=ST
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8339&f=ST
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8286&f=ST
If you want to count 500 player SCG events, sure that changes the picture a little, but nothing grinds out the metagame better than big 16 round events like GPs or Pro-Tours stacked with the very best players. Opens are still small enough that you can still potentially dodge bad match-ups. And if you want to discuss SCG wins it should be noted that one of those Jeskai winners was recently banned for cheating, mostly due to folks analyzing the footage from his finals match.
Is Jeskai Tempo good? Sure, it's one of the strong contenders in the format right now, but you're kidding yourself to call it imbalanced. Come back when it's the next Delver, Caw Blade, Affinity, etc.
October 29, 2014 1:37 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #17
I'll take a look in a little while man thanks. Ok just try your local store has there been any Jeskai decks that have been winning tournaments. Because that local events do count towards the meta game. Idk I didn't get to play those formats so I wouldn't know how good they where but I have a good feeling that it can reach that potential.On another thread I counted how much points of burn it gets. It got a scale of 58 well over leatal and someone told me not all of them go towards burning the opponent. I was kinda like yeah you only need 20 points of those to go to the face the other 38 can mess up your staples. I actually think it can compete with affinity deck from the vintage format. I'm bold enough to say that
October 29, 2014 1:44 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #18
@ Slycne: I don't think my judgment is a "knee-jerk" reaction. I've been playing in this meta since the release of Khans and I've been following tournament play rather closely. If you read my post, I think you'll find that it was carefully considered as opposed to a "OMG IT'S BROKEN"-type rant. I only asserted that the present field of net-decks aren't very well-positioned against Jeskai, especially those that run a heavy burn suite. I didn't at all imply that the metagame can't adjust its stance to accommodate the rising power of Jeskai. By the bye, isn't intantly calling something a knee-jerk reaction something of a knee-jerk reaction in itself?
That being said, I'll say that Abzan midrange with Siege Rhino and Whip of Erebos on board looks pretty good against Jeskai. However, a heavy reliance on mana creatures other than Sylvan Caryatid is dangerous with Jeskai's nasty burn suite. It's very possible that players will re-tool their mana bases to rely less on pain lands. I also think that we will begin to see Temur and possibly Mardu midrange decks going for a more controlling post-sideboard setup against Jeskai, boarding in as much as a full playset of Anger of the Gods , which absolutely answers every creature on the Jeskai mainboard, including a permanent shutdown of the pesky Ashcloud Phoenix . Temur players will likely board out mana dudes in favor of a couple extra lands and replace the small guys with big threats that can weather the Anger of the Gods . Negate and other counterspells will also be a big post-board help for Temur in this matchup, and I think we will see more of this as the meta develops. These adjustments will probably see Jeskai players considering Stormbreath Dragon and extra copies of Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker as even more essential sideboard staples than they already were.
October 29, 2014 1:51 a.m.
Personal experience is subjective, numbers aren't. It's not even the most winning deck in standard right now, so complaining about its balance strike me as pretty unnecessary at best. Heck, I got beat by my buddy over the weekend twice at an IQ playing Abzan vs Jeskai. Once in swiss and once in the Top 8. But I'm not crying about it being broken.
My point is simply that there's a huge difference between strong and imbalanced. There are periods of standard were certain decks were so pervasive that card bannings needed to happen in order to settle the metagame. Jeskai is not anywhere close to being that popular or powerful.
October 29, 2014 1:58 a.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #20
If it proves to be too powerful in Standard, they will likely nerf it in the next set. If it is such a problem for you personally, just use Erase and be done with it Until they do. My friend made top 8 with a Jeakai deck, and the winner was also Jeskai. I went 1-2 against the tournament winner with my Dragon deck and though I didn't play my friend in the tournament, I've beaten his deck in play testing with my Mardu.
October 29, 2014 2:02 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #21
Sets are designed well in advance of being released. They wont just decide to "nerf jeskai in the next set. The cards have been designed already. besides, it is likely we wont see 3 color cards in the next set (except for Nicol Bolas , maybe)
October 29, 2014 2:11 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
@CommanderOfBolas: That doesn't preclude the possibility that WOTC could perform emergency triage and include a card that helps counteract the strength of a particularly dominant deck or archetype. Cavern of Souls was effectively an answer to Mana Leak , which, in WOTC's eyes, became unacceptably oppressive when Innistrad was released and Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets Flip were the superpowers of the format.
October 29, 2014 2:35 a.m.
Sigh. Chad, you're back on it again. As I said before, Jeskai is going to trend weaker as the standard environment continues. Currently, Abzan, Temur and Jeskai are the 3 strongest decks in standard, and Jeskai just happens to have a lot of answers to threats in its colors. Currently, the deck is kind of like Melira Pod, in that it has a high skill ceiling yet is hard to learn naturally, and the pros that know what they're doing are going to do best with Jeskai. In essence, Jeskai isn't necessarily the strongest, winningest, most powerful or even most broken deck in standard, it's just highly played and loved by many strong players.
Standard is NOT fucking broken. Slightly imbalanced? Maybe, but nowhere near how previous standards have been.
I also read that you think that Jeskai can beat Affinity. That's ludicrous. Many affinity decks dump their hand turn 1 EASILY, swing for 4-6 turn 2 and if you try to kill any artifacts Arcbound Ravager will eat it. Try to kill the ravager and it'll kill itself, making something else stronger. Jeskai is strong ONLY in standard, we're not going to see it make any headway in Modern, Legacy or Vintage. We'll have to see a huge number of strong cards to make it work.
October 29, 2014 2:43 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #24
Yeah, Standard's Jeskai would be eaten alive by Affinity. Almost without a chance of doing anything.
October 29, 2014 2:46 a.m.
He even mentioned that it could beat Vintage Affinity.
October 29, 2014 2:48 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #26
I know. Which is ludicrous. But whatever.
He started a discussion about the strength of Jeskai in the present Standard meta. Despite the fact that his comments are laced with unfounded hyperboles, I think it is important for to reflect on the deck's power and what makes it so good in the hands of good pilots right now. I suggested and predicted a lot of metagame reactions to Jeskai in earlier comments.
When the dust settles, I still think Abzan midrange will be the deck to beat. But there is no denying how well-positioned Jeskai is right now, and the difficulty most of the top decks are experiencing with it.
October 29, 2014 2:56 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #27
I really dont think it would go down seeing that more people are winning/topping with it if anything it has the next two months to beat us up like little girls before the release the new meta that might give it some comp. The problem with the deck is the access to so many burn spells. The fact that the ruling of being able to hit a hex proof creature with a lightning strike makes it even harder for whatever other meta we have to win. Basically the deck is a great threat to the meta game believe it or not. And I dont think we should talk some down right banning but some restrictions against using that many burn spells. Maybe something like 3x stoke the flames 2x lightning bolt 2x magma jet 2x magma spray. Idk I'm just gonna watch the next few tourney and see where it goes. Again if it keeps going the way it's going you guys are gonna have to acknowledge me as one of the tier players of your game and take my opinion more seriously cause once again I don't like hearing comments like "sign, Chad your back again"
October 29, 2014 4:03 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #28
Ive seen old meta decks get taken down by now at days meta. Simply because the cards are now more updated then what they were before. It won't surprise me at all if someone takes on a affinity prime deck with Jeskai and comes out the winner
October 29, 2014 4:05 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #30
Lol relax man that's just a side note on the topic let's stick with the main convo at hand
October 29, 2014 4:21 a.m.
By that logic, Legacy Burn is the best deck in Magic hands down, and it clearly isn't. Hell, if you think Jeskai's 50-60 points of burn is broken, last season's Standard RW Burn deck had upwards of 100 points of burn in it. And that also didn't break the whole format.
The fact that the ruling of being able to hit a hex proof creature with a lightning strike makes it even harder for whatever other meta we have to win.
Speaking as a judge, there is no such ruling. Lightning Strike can't legally target a creature with hexproof.
October 29, 2014 4:22 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #32
Ugh thank you someone just told me you could cause it doesn't count as targeting. I believe it for a lil while but thanks for clearing that up
October 29, 2014 4:27 a.m.
OP_Magikarp says... #33
I still think monogreen/gruul is making a come up. We're only a few months into Khans. There are still many changes and adjustments that will be made over the next few months
October 29, 2014 8:14 a.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #34
Why would you limit the number of burn spells a person could use? last standard r/w burn was a thing. burn is also a thing in modern, legacy (and I think vintage, but I don't keep up with that). It is a legitimate archetype. You are correct, Epochalyptik, I just meant that Jeskai isn't so dominant that such a thing is necessary. According to MTGtop8, Abzan Midrange is 26% of the meta, Jeskai is only 19%. Why would they weaken a deck that isn't even the most popular? All im saying is that Jeskai is not an oppressive deck like some decks have been in the past.
October 29, 2014 9:39 a.m.
Yeah, I'd still call Abzan Midrange the strongest deck in the field.
The fact that Jeskai remains a viable T1 deck makes me happy. I find it a lot more interesting/fun than the creature based midrange strategies. I guess that mostly comes down to individual play style.
October 29, 2014 9:54 a.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #36
Siege Rhino is a serious card. My friend has an Abzan deck and it does pretty well considering he built it mostly trading and from boxes. Damn Utter End will see more play once Banishing Light rotates. Elspeth, Sun's Champion rotation will kind of reset the meta a little though, she is seeing play in everything.
October 29, 2014 10:01 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #37
Not to mention polukranos, stormbreath, sylvan caryatid, courser of kruphix, xangose, basically gonna kill G/R if they don't make those reprints
October 29, 2014 1:51 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #38
Guys the format is pretty bad when your saying "I don't think jeskai is that broken because we have another tyrant" abzan is the deck to run thou. I don't think it's as fast as Jeskai but def has the outs that are needed for the match up
October 29, 2014 1:54 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #39
Chadtherest00, those cards were all pushed though power wise. If they are trying to slow the format back down, they will let those effects die. A 0/3 hexproof mana battery for any color is ridiculous anyway when no descent second options appeared until Rattleclaw Mystic . In a wedge set, you want to steer players towards using the cards you just released, so expect to see "slower" cards such as Banishing Light becoming Utter End and Stormbreath Dragon becoming a somewhat easier to deal with Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker . And there are plenty of commons/uncommons representing them moving towards a slower meta.
October 29, 2014 2:09 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #41
@ Chadtherest00 I would argue that the meta is perfectly fine right now. Jeskai and Azban are dominant, but that's usually what happens with standard, Furthermore, UB Control does fairly well, especially since sideboards are geared toward the more midrange builds right now. Perhaps playing online skews my perspective, but I've also seen a surge in Temur aggro decks and Mardu Midrange. Perhaps not the most dominant, but still making for a diverse meta game all around. And I wouldn't say that Abzan is a tyrant in the format right now. Sure, it's powerful, make no mistake, but neither it nor Jeskai fall into the category of "play me or lose".
October 29, 2014 2:19 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #42
Actually you might be right a mardu deck won the locals this past friday? Bravo topped. And there was an azban deck. Maybe I am over thinking this
October 29, 2014 2:34 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #43
CanadianShinobi is correct. The meta has some front runners, but that's normal. Jeskai is very strong right now and has really good matchups and reach with a big burn platform against all these pain-filled mana bases. But the cards exist in the format that can allow players to react to Jeskai and stabilize matchups. The meta will shift, and the format is totally fine. Jeskai isn't nearly as tough as Mono-Black Devotion was at its height, so let's recall that when we comment on power level.
October 29, 2014 3:04 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #44
Plus Jeskai burn gets hosed pretty effectively by life gain and big opposing threats. Big creatures pressure them heavily and something like Bow of Nylea really hurts their burn plan as it essentially undoes most of their burn spells completely. There will always be a few best decks in any meta. The fact that even this far into the format there is no clear king is awesome. Each tournament we see abzan and jeskai, but also a ton of other competitive decks, and that speaks to the health of the format.
November 4, 2014 2:26 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #45
I don't think burn is a sustainable thing. "Burn" spells are too weak or high cmc as it stands now. im talking "pure" burn mind you. Lightning Strike and Magma Jet will need to be replaced along with Stoke the Flames. So, though it's still a ways away, rotation will kill burn as it stands now.
November 4, 2014 3:02 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #46
We are talking about the current standard, not something a year or so away.
November 4, 2014 4:56 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #47
Speaking for the current meta what do you guys think of the new Jeskai combo deck?
November 4, 2014 10:45 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #48
It is strong in the sense that it is difficult to interact with, but that is where its strengths end. It isn't consistent enough to be great, but it is pretty good still.
November 5, 2014 12:46 a.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #49
I wuldnt really say it isn't great I saw a match where it only uses the heroic engine and I really think that people should see it more viertile then what they think it is. I mean it's not only a Jeskai combo deck but a well constructed heroic deck.
VampireArmy says... #2
I guess there's a reason wizards doesn't do wedge sets huh.
October 28, 2014 10:20 p.m.