Dimir Devotion
Standard forum
Posted on March 28, 2014, 2:25 a.m. by Stein_
What cards do you think make UB Devotion viable? This will be control, with UB God, and Mind Grind , Ashiok, etc.
The Doctor says... #3
Except when it's not.
Example : Alternate win-con in control.
March 28, 2014 2:42 a.m.
The Doctor says... #4
Mill decks are bad. Mill is not bad. There is a difference.
March 28, 2014 2:43 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #5
Exactly, but you have to consider the opportunity cost of running cards like Mind Grind. Nephalia Drownyard and to a lesser extent Ashiok are good because they do more than just mill. Cards like Mind Grind or Phenax are bad because they don't actually do anything.
Mind Grind is just a dead card most of the time.
March 28, 2014 2:45 a.m.
The Doctor says... #6
Mind Grind is dead, yes, except perhaps as a sideboard card.
If you're going to use mill as a win-con in control, do it in means such as Ashiok, Jace, Memory Adept, Codex Shredder, ect...
March 28, 2014 2:46 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #7
...Codex Shredder? Why?
But the planeswalkers you mentioned are good cards because they do other things. Ashiok puts creatures into play, generating card advantage; Jace draws you cards.
A control deck wins games on generating card advantage. (That's why Revelation is so good, and I have no idea why you're not playing Esper if not just for that card. Seems strictly wrong) Mill is actively not card advantage. If you play Jace and 0 him, you're down a card for very very little gain. Mill will not stabilize you the way other wincons can. Elspeth is great against a variety of boardstates, winning or losing.
Tl;Dr, there is currently no incentive in standard to play mill as a wincon versus what the traditional control decks are doing.
March 28, 2014 2:50 a.m.
Haha relax guys, im allowing my girlfriend to build her own standard deck, and I happen to open up phenax, and I have some grinds, among other things. My question was, what cards csn help it. Yes, it will be an alt win con by mill, so we play control with Omenspeaker , Wall of Frost , thongs with big butts, so we can end of turn mill, as our alt win con. By using daddy jace, that's actually pretty sweet! We have opens for Thoughtseize , Dimir Charm which can synergize with Ashiok on your next turn, no wrath so we have to be able to kill, alot. By playing some creatures, we can activate our God, which sure isn't that great, but it can work. I also believe Mind Grind is fine, as Nykthos can make it pretty devastating. As you said "Why don't you just play esper?" I do play Esper actually haha, again this is something fun for my gf, and at least fun for fnm.
March 28, 2014 3:02 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #9
If you're putting a card in purely for milling, I would go with Traumatize
. It's just more efficient. Mill decks typically only work in a control shell, and using Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
to fuel huge Mind Grind
s demands too many permanents (kind of the same problem with Phenax, God of Deception
). You don't really want to run more than 4, maybe 6 Walls, so activating Nykthos for a decent amount while staying alive seems unlikely.
March 28, 2014 4:56 a.m.
I'm under the impression that a defensive set-up in BUG Walls, with Wall of Frost , Sylvan Caryatid s and Axebane Guardian s can make Mind Grind an actual win-con. Not just a speed-up, but the finishing bomb.
Ofcourse, you want this in a control shell with more win-cons, but it could work out pretty well. Mill may be overly present, but it shouldn't be the sole focus of the deck.
March 28, 2014 5:51 a.m.
The Doctor says... #11
TurboFagoot, As a two of, it's pretty useful. Allows for some card advantage, especially with scry lands (milling what they wanted to keep), and also allows you to return a card from your graveyard.
March 28, 2014 2:21 p.m.
Getting thendeclrion isn't too hard. Having Ashiok, the God is 4 Devotion, so you put out your blockers in the form of omenspeaker, wall of frost, good, and the god is active. Traumatize is cool, and id run a 1 of. I do like the BUG idea with Defender mana ramp, but I wanna keep this UB. Just control by killing, and tempoing, and then alt win with mill.
March 28, 2014 3:26 p.m.
amishrambo says... #13
to all of those who say mill is never viable in standard, ah well Jace, Memory Adept BEGGING TO DIFFER!
March 29, 2014 6:59 p.m.
Mill seems fringe viable to me. I used to run Nephalia Drownyard esper control in ISN/RTR, and it ran efficiently, and that was only with Nephalias and Jace, Memory Adept . There's a lot more opportunity with the Phenax in standard. None of it could compare to Nephalia since it takes a land slot for decks, but it's not impossible to pull off. It's just very noncompetitive. That said, running Traumatize over Mind Grind is a horrible idea. With steady mills on Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver , Jace, Memory Adept , Phenax, God of Deception , and whatever blockers you tap down with Phenax's ability, your opponent's deck is going to gradually get smaller and smaller every turn. When their deck gets low and you draw your 1x Mind Grind (with all those dead lands you've been drawing throughout the game), it will be a much more reliable finisher than Traumatize . Mind Grind actually has the potential to mill someone out, whereas, unless their library has 0 cards in it, surviving Traumatize is always guaranteed. Also consider using Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx if you're centering your deck around Phenax, as you should have many permanents to add to your devotion. On another note, Jace, Memory Adept is extremely reliable in this build. Milling ten every turn or drawing when you need it is great, and even though he won't be getting any loyalty from it, you'll be keeping him alive with your giant blockers, so combat damage shouldn't be much to worry about. The only argument I see for him not being perfect for standard mill is Hero's Downfall . And in that case, why does anyone use planeswalkers in standard.
March 29, 2014 8:11 p.m.
...cuz planeswalkers are so cool! I deff agree with you Codebread, jace and ashiok going game on a dudes library is amazing disruption, with killing creatures that hit the board. Gaining knowledge with Ashiok is valuable, and can also turn deadly. As I am starting to see more, the Guilds with their devotion is what's up, and Mind Grind with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is insane. Black has the best removal, and blue as awesome tempo Cyclonic Rift , Dimir Charm on turn two, and ashiok turn 3, seems pretty solid. Cute, maybe, but it's worth a shot.
March 30, 2014 2:24 a.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #16
If this were BUG, I would agree with Mind Grind over Traumatize . However, in a B/U or Esper deck, the latter is clearly better. Given that most decks run approx. 40% lands, that means you will hit about 2.5 times X cards with Mind Grind . Therefore, you're looking at something like turn 10 before you're even milling 20 cards at X=8, whereas Traumatize can easily hit 20 for half that cost. Utilizing Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is just going to encourage bad deckbuilding as you trade out hard removal and counterspells for an excessive number of Walls, so you won't even survive long enough to make decent use of Mind Grind . Besides, you're going to need Jace, Memory Adept or Phenax, God of Deception to win anyways, so let those be your finishers while your milling sorcery can take out a big chunk in the mid game.
March 30, 2014 8:41 p.m.
In a Phenax build, you're supposed to have big walls anyway.
March 30, 2014 10:48 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #18
Some, but not enough to make Nykthos relevant.
March 30, 2014 10:50 p.m.
Well, I'm not in with standard enough to disagree.
But I'll stand by my Mind Grind statement. My opinion.
TurboFagoot says... #2
Mind Grind is never viable, daily reminder that mill is bad.
March 28, 2014 2:35 a.m.