Reserved List Banhammer?!?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Aug. 23, 2020, 4:53 a.m. by Rabid_Wombat
Seen alot of rumors and speculation about the Reserved List being banned in all Eternal formats.
No reprints, just the 572 cards being straight up banned. So no more Duals in edh :/
But the new Commander Legends preview showing the enemy-color "Battlebond Duals" means players will have all ten Duals available...admittedly underpowered versions but are Wizards making viable alternatives in the lead up to a possible ban? For example - Timetwister could be replaced by Echo of Aeons.
The Pros:
Vintage, Legacy and edh would become much more accessible for new players and a decks competitiveness would no longer be as linked to a persons willingness to spend up big on RL cards on the secondary market.
The Cons:
There would be a lot of fall out from collectors and stores who would lose potentially thousands of dollars but there would still be demand for some RL cards due to unsanctioned formats such as Old School 93/94 that really don't care what Wizards do.
Personally I think something needs to be done as the RL cards have been spiking hard lately (Gaea's Cradle for example) making them even more out of reach for the majority of players. A ban would be a clever alternative to reprinting the RL which Wizards have pledged never to do!
"Seen alot of rumors and speculation"
Can you please provide even a single link where anyone of influence is hinting towards this being a thing? Because a bunch of broke students complaining about the cost of cards is one thing, but anybody at WotC actually doing anything about it is completely different.
And I don't think this would make Vintage/Legacy more accessible, I think it would kill both of the formats.
August 23, 2020 7:09 a.m.
I don't think it will happen. Wotc has been printing newer not as strong variants to compensate for the reserved list. Growing Rites of Itlimoc  Flip in place of Gaea's Cradle, Storm the Vault  Flip>Tolarian Academy etc...
August 23, 2020 10:22 a.m.
The announcement specified that it was only going to be affecting historic so I have no idea why anybody would think anything otherwise. Also I feel like banning all the cards on the reserve list is just a bad way of doing business.
I do support abolishing the reserve list all together though. It's not helping the game at all. If you're really one of the people who think that the reserve list is propping up magic's existence currently, look at how much original copies of alpha Craw Wurm sell for.... or still sealed in-box copies of original Super Mario Brothers from original Nintendo. Many collectibles are valuable because they're actually just hard to get original first edition copies of in good condition, not because there's nothing like it anywhere else on earth.
They could bring back collector's edition versions of sets printed as full sets in a box with gold borders and maybe Championship decks with gold borders like they used to. They could sell it like a secret lair but you would get full sets like they used to or maybe booster boxes of old sets reprinted with a small mark on it so you can tell it's a new printing like Mystery Booster did. There are one hundred percent ways they could do it without annihilating the secondary Market.
There's no such thing as a person that disagrees with this argument that isn't disagreeing out of self-interest because it would mean a financial loss to them. If it's just about growing the game and the health of magic as a cultural phenomenon for the distant future, there is no debate. Making magic cards more accessible makes it easier to play the game, period.
Its like they don't have ownership or control over some of their most valuable intellectual property! How could that be possibly be considered good from a game designer's perspective? It doesn't sound good for business either.
If the primary objective is not cultivating the games paper card player base at all but instead trying to influence secondary card market values to go up forever... like some kind of broken stock market or something, it would have a negative effect on players. However if the primary objective is growing the active player base and keeping it constantly engaged, the reserve list is holding the game back from it true potential.
Generally it feels like their plan is to somehow do both things at the same time. I think they can achieve both goals without the reserve list.
August 23, 2020 10:41 a.m.
Rzepkanut - Today, I think the primary purpose of the RL is "well, we're stuck with it." I think Wizards fully knows that it, with the benefit of hindsight, the RL was a mistake (hindsight is 20-20; I am not sure it was an unreasonable decision at the time it was implemented). Unfortunately, they just cannot do very much about it.
Gold-bordered cards could help for most of Commander, since there is precedent for using gold-borders to circumvent the RL. They would not, however, help Legacy, Vintage, or any official Commander event (which I suspect Wizards might want to do more of given the format's popularity), seeing as gold-bordered cards would not be tournament legal. It follows that there would be kitchen tables and unsanctioned events that would likewise not permit gold-border due to their lack of tournament legality.
Still, it would be interesting to see them try and see how the unsanctioned community reacted to these new gold-bordered cards.
August 23, 2020 10:58 a.m.
Wotc doesn't control the EDH ban list. Also this would have immeasurable effects on legacy and vintage. They would essentially be new formats.
August 23, 2020 11:56 a.m.
Ender666666 says... #10
The joy of eternal formats like commander, is partially that you get to play with weird and bizarre cards, combos, and interactions. Cards that are broken because they failed to predict future cards or rules changes that would break them. Cards like this, unfortunately, don't tend to get reprinted and tend to be desired. No matter what, they'll always be expensive, reserved list or not.
Like it or not, the reserved list is the only thing that ever really kept the business, and by extention, the Game, truly viable in terms of customer confidence in their collection's value, and therefore desire to stay invested and investing into it.
Honestly, I strongly believe that the game comes first, and that anyone who wants to play proxies in casual play, should be allowed to for the sake of game quality and equitable gameplay.
Those who have RL cards, or choose to invest in the economy of collectable RL cards need not be hated on when staples cost small fortunes...
When proxies are allowed in a casual format...
And Commander is at its core, a casual format first and foremost, right?
TL;DR
PROXIES GOOD IN CASUAL PLAY
COMMANDER IS CASUAL
STOP HATING ON AN ECONOMY THAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO PARTICIPATE IN, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT - IF YOU WANT IT, WORK TOWARDS IT
PEACE, LOVE, & COMMANDER DAMAGE!
August 23, 2020 7:26 p.m. Edited.
Ender666666 says... #11
Reading it back I see your point and honestly apologize.
I was thinking about it simply from a motivational point of view and didn't take status or privilege into account.
So again, I'm sorry. No harm intended. I'll learn from this and do better.
August 23, 2020 7:59 p.m.
DeinoStinkus: On the flipside though, I think that it is important to point out that for the vast majority of MtG players, this is a hobby. So while I can understand that people what the game to be accessible (which is generally a good business model to ensure repeat customers), there isn't an onus on WotC to ensure that the top tier cards in the game are affordable to everyone.
I have seen the "I can't afford to spend hunders of dollars on pieces of cardboard, and I also don't want to" comments before however my counter arguemnt is that you don't have to. There is nothing forcing people to play MtG or to spend money on the game.
If you're suffering from FOMO (that's a general statement, not you specifically) becuase the rest of your playgroup is outpricing you, then that's a conversation you should be having with your playgroup. But I don't believe that WotC should be held responsible for your financial situation.
At the end of the day, people should be amanging their finances and if they can't afford to be playing a game (which most people acknoledge is a money pit and most players know this going in) then they probably shouldn't be picking it up as a hobby, or should be looking at ways of keeping costs down.
August 23, 2020 8:18 p.m.
The solution is to print gold-bordered cards for the RL and make gold-bordered cards legal for play in sanctioned tournaments. Everyone is happy.
August 24, 2020 2:44 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #14
Maybe Wizards will release their own version of "Modern" Commander...with all RL cards banned.
The version we have today would still have RL cards and the Ruling Commitee making the decisions but the Modern version would soon outpace it in popularity due to affordability and Sanctioned prize support.
If no new cards were added to the "Legacy" version of EDH it would be awesome...sometimes all the new cards from the six+ expansions that dropped in the previous 12 months makes my head spin.
August 24, 2020 5:32 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #15
Banning the Reserved List would obliterate Vintage and Legacy. Anyone who played those formats would move to Modern if they had any interest in the game after the banning. I think that legally and practically, there isn't anything to be done about the health of those formats. They can't just ditch the RL or else they would be facing lawsuits for years and years. Even if they won all the suits, the cost of that alone would ruin them. They could possibly get away with printing gold-bordered versions, but it would have to be in a very small print run or else prices would drop. Despite tournament legality, many playgroups allow gold borders, and many counterfeiters use them for re-backs, so there is enough demand that too many gold borders would tank prices. If they then made gold borders tournament legal, once again, prices would tank and there would be lawsuits. It's kind of an unfixable situation. If you want the game to be more accessible, join or start a playgroup that is proxy friendly. In my EDH group, we like playing at an 8 or 9, but we are all a bunch of broke, newlywed 20 year olds, trying to start a life. I have a Jhoira of the Ghitu deck that looks an awful lot like a stack of the playtest cards from the Mystery Boosters.
August 24, 2020 8:54 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat - With respect, when other users reply to your thread asking for citations and authorities to back up the "alot of rumors and speculation" mentioned in your initial post, and your first, and thus far only, reply is not to provide citations, but to create more baseless speculation, that does not exactly inspire confidence in the validity of your rumors.
August 24, 2020 9:06 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #17
Caerwyn Sadly as my inside source works at Wizards I am not going to reveal his/her name.
I will just look forward to bumping this thread when the ban does happen in the coming months ;)
August 25, 2020 8:04 a.m.
Rabid_Wombat - Ah, gotcha. The ol' "My cousin's uncle totally works at Nintendo, and he said you could catch a Mew by going to the S.S. Anne after playing for one hundred hours" source.
Seems 100% above the board. That's why you led with "alot of rumors and speculation" instead of "an inside source at Wizards told me." That's why your second post was more speculation starting with "maybe" rather than a statement that was a bit more firm in your thought as to its possibility.
August 25, 2020 8:29 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #19
Rabid_Wombat I'll make sure to mention you on this thread every time we get a banned/restricted announcement that doesn't include the whole freaking Reserved List.
August 25, 2020 3:09 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #20
enpc - "I have seen the "I can't afford to spend hunders of dollars on pieces of cardboard, and I also don't want to" comments before however my counter arguemnt is that you don't have to. There is nothing forcing people to play MtG or to spend money on the game."
Unfortunately that statement isn't 100% true if you are trying to play most Eternal formats where you are pretty much required to have certain, hard to acquire cards. Yes you don't have to play those formats, but fetches and duals are basically a necessity depending on how you play Magic. That's where most of the frustration comes from the RL and WotC confusing reprint policy.
August 26, 2020 2:42 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #21
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor I think you misinterpreted that statement. enpc wasn't saying that you should play Vintage on a budget. He was saying that if you don't want to spend money to play eternal formats, don't play eternal formats. If magic is too expensive, don't play magic.
August 26, 2020 3:33 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #22
EleshNornsFs - I understand that, and I agree for the most part as it is a very pragmatic view (for any hobby really). However, the whole "maybe this set/format isn't for you" message (and that is basically what this is) is counter to what Magic has stood for as "a game for everyone" for many years. Plus, having multiple healthy/affordable formats which people can easily switch between when another format is struggling (cough standard cough) is important for the game's survival. Unfortunately, things like the RL and lacking reprints hinder this ability. I am not saying there can't be more expensive formats, but I do think people should be able to at have easy access to the foundational pieces of those formats so they can at least play.
August 26, 2020 4:02 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #23
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that the game should be more accessible. I want to see the prices of singles drop through the freaking floor. I just wanted to make sure that the prior statement was properly understood.
August 26, 2020 4:10 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor: Sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner.
I get that my opinion on the game can be a bit polarising and on top of that, I get that I'm in a position to be able to buy expensive cards which might seem like a slap in the face to people who have a beef with the RL and are also in a position of not being able to buy any of said cards.
I do want to touch on your comment though around what MtG is standing for with regards to being "a game for everyone". While I can get behind this and do think that it's the case, it's important to acknowledge that there is a caveat here: MtG may be accessible, but that doesn't mean it's wholly acceissible.
The game has been around for a long time (over 25 years) and since its inception we have seen a lot of new formats come (and sometimes go). But not all formats are equal, especially when it comes to price point. I get that vintage, legacy and commander all have access to the RL, however these are not the only formats out there. Modern and now the new pioneer (which I'm sure was in part created to help deal with the modern price tag - which I will touch on in a bit). In addition to that, Commander, which has been booming in popularity (at least in comparison to other formats) has a very large casual player base, with a large number of these players generally having an upper limit of a few hundred dollars for a deck as opposed to the potentially $1,000+ for modern. On top of that, a huge chunk of the cEDH community has no issues with players proxying, which negates all but the cost of ink cartridges and paper.
Now let's get back to modern. So, generally a top tier modern deck can cost between $1,000 and $1,500. But that doesn't have to be all modern decks. There are fringe decks and things like RDW which can greatly reduce the cost thanks to mono coloured mana bases. There are also decks like Bant Knightfall which may not be as competitive as tier 1 lists, however are still more than playable at an FNM, but don't carry anywhere near as high a pricetag. And now with the release of pioneer which is being pushed bt WotC, we have a format where fetch lands (which can make up a huge part of a deck's price) are just outright banned.
So back to my original comment - I think that as a hobby, MtG is not the cheapest there is by a long way. As somebody how has a few hobbies, I can attest that even hobbies which have membership fees still can come out cheaper. But at the same time, there are much more expensive, mainstream hobbies (cycling, I'm looking at you).
But for all of this, there are options for people who want to play MtG whole not spending a lot of money. Commander is a great way to play the game while keeping your costs down, especially since it has such wide reach across so many different levels of play.
However, if a player wants to get into a specific, expensive format, then that is a decision that they are actively making. That is not something that WotC should be blamed for and I don't think it's fair to claim that just because that particular avenue is infeasable that WotC aren't making the game accessible. It's like if you got into car racing and there was a group that raced honda civics while another group raced supercars. Sure, you might want to go and buy yourself a Lexus LFA or a BMW M3, however if you can't afford it, accusing both groups of being inaccessible despite the fact that you ignored the civic racing one is a really selfish attitude.
And this is where I take issue with a lot of the complaints against the RL. Sure, I have certain issues with it myself. But the biggest argument I see is that "it makes the game unaffordable", which is a load of crap. It's just that the particular line of reasoning is used by poeple who want to play expensive cards but can't afford them and haven't explored any alternative avenues. And my opinion is that those people need a dose of reality and generally to get over themselves.
MollyMab says... #2
It seems very very unlikely. It would be hugely unpopular with so many communities. I think we are going to see the RL challanged tho.
August 23, 2020 5:03 a.m.