Infect returning in Kaladesh?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on Oct. 5, 2016, 2:02 p.m. by Uri
At my local store, this is a very popular talk; Phyrexians, including their Infect mechanic, returning to Kaladesh.
This idea isn't very far fetched, though. We've seen Tezzeret making a wild appearance, with his own phyrexian/mirrodin styled constructs.
We also have Rashmi a potential anagram for Mishra, the Eternities Crafter, the eternities which links Kaladesh to the Phyrexians via the Eldrazi.
We have Nicol Bolas, waiting up ahead, who is also linked to the Eldrazi, Phyrexia and Mirrodin.
Would it be possible that Infect will return to Kaladesh? When looking at the game mechanics, we can learn the following:
Infect is a better form of Wither, which will create -1 / -1 counters. Kaladesh has a lot of +1 / +1 counter output, which according to the game rules nullify each other.
There is an artifact that targets not only counters on a permanent, but also on a PLAYER. Animation Module. Notice that is says simply "permanent" or "player", and NOT "xxx you control" or "you". Why wouldn't it? Maybe there is a NEGATIVE counter that you would like to duplicate. A negative counter that, not only can be applied to a permanent, but ALSO on a player... INFECT counters.
I really hope they don't print any new infect cards. I think the Animation Module is just like that so it is more viable in other formats.
October 5, 2016 2:28 p.m.
@seuvius because the Phyrexians tried to invade Zendikar after their success on Mirrodin. But they failed because their timing was poor, as the Eldrazi was also already busy on Zendikar at that time.
October 5, 2016 2:58 p.m.
Grahamatica says... #6
I think its likely that due to the portal from Rashmi we could see some form of phyrexians at least attempt to come to Kaladesh. But I dont think Infect will come back (could obviously be wrong). Infect was a really strong ability (hence why a modern deck revolves around winning with it). But Animation Module was made to just give a player more energy counters (I think). They like to add open ended abilities like that for formats other than standard. Plus they would need to really focus on alot of cards with the infect mechanic in Aether Revolt otherwise it wont work. Aether revolt will only have 184 cards and for the infect mechanic to be viable you would need many cards with it. The only time we had infect was in the Scars block (479 total cards in all 3 sets with about 59 cards with infect).
I personally think it would be cool to see the Phyrexians come back and if infect came so be it but I dont think it would be major mechanic. At best it would come on only a select few cards (perhaps Tezzeret would make infect construct tokens or give artifact creatures infect).
October 5, 2016 2:59 p.m.
LittleBlueHero says... #7
I totally missed the Rashmi/Mishra thing...
Mishra was in fact a phyrexian construct during the brothers war so perhaps Rashmi is a phyrexian implant sent to recreate the planar gates for phyrexian invasion?
October 5, 2016 3 p.m.
@Graham well, we know that loads of cards have purpose in standard. Even though Harmless Offering gave its respective questions, we got our answers with Demonic Pact and Midnight Oil
October 5, 2016 3:04 p.m.
Grahamatica says... #10
@Uri, sure we might get a few cards with the mechanic but I was just putting serious doubt on it being a 'major' mechanic. I love Harmless Offering mostly because its a funny card with funny deck ideas but none from Eldritch Moon.
October 5, 2016 3:09 p.m.
I really really doubt we'll ever see infect again expect for maybe a few cards in commander. But I'd be down to see some new phyrexians
October 5, 2016 4:59 p.m.
The module is like that so it works with energy counters.
October 5, 2016 5:08 p.m.
I know, Mortem. But why does it says "TARGET PLAYER", and not "YOU"?
October 5, 2016 5:13 p.m.
"Infect is a better form of Wither, which will create -1 / -1 counters. Kaladesh has a lot of +1 / +1 counter output, which according to the game rules nullify each other."
This is in fact a very good sign that infect will not be making an appearance. Go look at Scars of Mirrodin, there isn't a single card that creates +1/+1 counters in the entire block.
October 5, 2016 5:56 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #16
I'm going to go out on a limb and say infect won't be coming back. It really messed up limited and can ruin a really awesome draft/limited environment. Even in cube with powerful cards/effects infect isn't very fun. For constructed reasons it's fine and all(I play legacy infect) but for limited which is one of the new focus' for sets coming out I don't think it finds a home.
I would love to have Phyrexians back, they were great villains every time they came around. I really don't want to see infect though, it's up there with affinity as far as ruining a limited environment. They're very good lately when it comes to reinventing mechanics to make them fit a set.
October 5, 2016 6:04 p.m.
Also, something most people miss is that Animation Module also works with Planeswalkers. It is sort of like The Chain Veil without the drawback. Helps you tick them up faster regardless.
October 5, 2016 7 p.m.
@Ducktaped why would you give another player energy counters? If it was meant for energy counters, wouldn't it just say "You"?
@Lame Duck, Standard in the phyrexia block weren't as balanced as they are now. Phyrexia was brutally overwhelming through its entire course, thanks to both its infect and phyrexian mana mechanic.
However, Mirrodin had its own mechanic that Infect used as mechanic... Indestructibility. Counters is "kinda" a form of indestructibility, but more aggressive against wither/infect counters on creatures rather than being defensive.
@mathimus The power of Infect really depends on how strong it'll be executed. If it's as overwhelming as Phyrexia brought it, then most definetly it'll be too overpowered. But infect in a calmer tone, or some methods to remove counters from a player possibility a creature like Hex parasite?, then infect wouldn't be as overwhelming. We already have +1/+1 counters that can restore the Wither damage, at least.
Also, I have to come back at another point that someone made earlier, about -1 / -1 counters. He said that they were actively applicable... however, that isn't true in Phyrexia. This mechanic existed only in Shadowmoor
October 5, 2016 7:26 p.m.
I'm not sure you understand the point I was trying to make, Uri. WotC intentionally don't design sets with a focus on multiple different types of counters on creatures because it makes it harder to keep track of the board state. +1/+1 counters didn't appear in Scars because of the presence of infect and the high presence of +1/+1 counters in Kaladesh is a sure sign that infect will not be coming soon.
October 5, 2016 8:02 p.m.
The question has been answered but I will repeat why it says "Player" as well as Permanent. It allows the card to be used in other formats.
Regardless of whether Infect is in this Block, Animation Module can be used in any other format where it is legal. It can used in Modern, and Commander where you might be playing with Infect. You can target yourself to produce extra Energy, Experience, or any other counters. As was also mentioned, it can be used in Superfriends decks as well to increase Loyalty counters.
If you look at it though, it's just a weaker form of Proliferate. Contagion Clasp is just better because it can have multiple targets for just one extra mana. Contagion Engine just beats both easily.
I do see use for Animation Module in an Ezuri, Claw of Progress deck though. At beginning of Combat, add counters to a creature, pay the , get another Experience counter, then you can pay another for yet another Experience counter. Not bad for 5 mana total cost, 1 to cast, 1 to pay when the counters hit, and another 3 to get the last Experience counter.
October 5, 2016 8:06 p.m.
Maro has explicitly stated that WOTC does not do +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters in the same block.
October 5, 2016 8:14 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #22
No, just no more Infect. I'm willing to bet that the Infect mechanic will never be reprinted, much like other mechanics like Affinity, Dredge, Phyrexian Mana, and Split Second. I'd rather see Banding and Mana Burn (technically a rule) make a comeback.
October 5, 2016 8:50 p.m.
You are the only person ive ever seen who hopes for more banding...
October 5, 2016 8:58 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver I would like to see Mana Burn come back on a Commander. A Commander that would have its Mana Burn effect active even while it was in the Command Zone like Oloro, Ageless Ascetic has an ability in the Command Zone.
It's hard to actually get it to work though. I'm thinking something along the lines of Citadel of Pain + Manabarbs .
October 5, 2016 9:08 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #25
Hahaha!!! By the Helm of Chatzuk! I don't really want to see it come back, but...
October 5, 2016 9:09 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #26
Ooh, I can dig that! I remember playing an olde school Izzet deck that forced the opponent to empty their mana pool, take mana burn, and would win via burn spells like Fireball, Mana Barbs, Power Surge, Ball Lightning, and Prodigal Sorcerer. It was packed with Counterspell, Brainstorm, and Force of Will. Man that was fun!
October 5, 2016 9:12 p.m.
It's unlikely we'll be seeing infect here.
If the Phyrexians do end up coming to Kaladesh, it's possible they may have the poisonous keyword, ie, the much more fair poison counter mechanic that is easier to keep balanced across formats.
October 5, 2016 10:27 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #28
There is no guarantee that Phyrexia will invade Kaladesh (but I personally hope that it does), but, if it does, I doubt that infect shall return, because it is simply too powerful of a mechanic.
Uri, when did Phyrexia attempt to invade Zendikar? I do not recall that happening.
October 6, 2016 12:48 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #29
Uri I just checked into this and there are no canon sources that claim phyrexia went to zendikar. Furthermore, I don't expect infect to ever reach standard again. The ability killed fun faster than it killed opponents and wizards has a problem with that.
All in all this thread has a very "illuminati confirmed" vibe...
October 6, 2016 3:14 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #30
Uri I don't think WotC cares as much about creatures getting the counters as much with infect as they do the players. That's where the issue is. Wizards wants 20 damage dealt by creatures these days, especially in limited. Infect is a problem because it kills players too fast. Plus with Built to Last and Built to Smash in the format, it would be easy to pump a creature with any sort of evasion into 1 shot kill mode which isn't what wizards wants. Creatures interacting with creatures is the goal of wizards, infect ending games before they really get started isn't.
October 6, 2016 8:26 a.m.
Maybe a bit of topic, but speaking of Mishra/Rashmi.. check out Depala, Pilot Exemplar. Isnt that Skyship Weatherlight tattooed on her arm? Weatherlight as in urzas ship?
October 6, 2016 11:19 a.m.
pizzagod13 says... #32
I'm pretty sure wizards has said they would never print infect again but I don't have a source
October 6, 2016 3:12 p.m.
Why wouldn't they print it again? It just doesn't make sense. It is already in the game and it's own archetype. It has decks in Legacy, Vintage, Pauper, Modern, and even Commander.
Whether they like it or not, it is in the game and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I just feel like it would be stupid not to reprint such an ability.
They don't need to release it in Standard to reprint it.
October 6, 2016 5:37 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #34
Infect won't happen for reasons mentioned above. But the Phyrexian link seems plausible, between Rashmi and the teleportation ability (which may link planes) it could be leading to something...
October 6, 2016 9:22 p.m.
Of course, when I speculated "infect could make a return", I never said it would be as strong as it was in Mirrodin. Of course it would be properly tweaked, and ther Revolt coming with proper counter-measures.
Fact is, they are definetly bringing back old mechanics. Madness, not to mention, is a mechanic that originates from the old innistrad set. And the Metalwork colossus has a "wannabe" artifact affinity.
But to be honest, I think people would rather have Infect returning than Phyrexian mana. That stuff was broken as hell.
October 7, 2016 4:50 a.m.
For as far a mechanic goes in Standard tournament situations, you realize we have a banlist right? Sets don't necessarily have to follow a certain compatibility. In fact no pun intended, infect could also work out very well within its own block of Kaladesh, but released in the quantity as Emerge did.
October 7, 2016 4:53 a.m.
DemonDragonJ I do recall there was constantly something said about the Phyrexians v.s. the Eldrazi. And the only place known right now where the Eldrazi went is Zendikar.
Another thing I forgot to note is that Infect was kinda supported by a different mechanic... Proliferate. We don't have that. Well, we have the Module, which can only trigger once each turn and only on one target source. So if infect would come, it's long not as strongly supported by other abilities than it was during New Phyrexia.
October 7, 2016 4:58 a.m.
A: Madness is older than original Innistrad.
B: There has always been hypothetical talk of Eldrazi vs Phyrexians. There has never been a canonical case of it coming close to happening; as far as we know presently, New Phyrexia has no planar portals, though they're being worked on.
C: infect won't get tweaked, it doesn't need proliferate to be too powerful, and Wizards will not print cards with the intention to ban them, certainly not in standard. That's not a good business move for any game. Yugioh has done it only once (twice technically, but the second time they let people play it for about a month or so before hitting it) and it didn't make anyone happy. If Phyrexia comes to Kaladesh, and if they bring poison counters, they'll have Poisonous rather than infect, because it's harder to exploit with pump spells and such, and if they keep all the poisonous numbers low, in the 1-2 range, save a few Rares or mythics, they can maintain their ideal game length better.
October 7, 2016 7:28 a.m.
pizzagod13 says... #39
I meant it wouldn't be in standard ever again. They will reprint it in some other set most likely
October 7, 2016 8:38 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #40
Mark Rosewater's comments on Infect coming back.
In short, there are lots of issues with infect, especially in limited. Usually Rosewater is upfront about saying "We are actively working/not working on using mechanic-x again." when he gets requests like that. For him to keep saying so many times that there are too many things working against it to me shows that they don't have any immediate plans to bring infect back into standard any time soon.
October 7, 2016 8:49 a.m.
The only way I can see us getting any new infect cards would be like 1 or 2 cards in an edh set or the new arch enemy
October 7, 2016 11:02 a.m.
I got the totally opposite message from what Rosewater said. He mentioned that people hate Infect but they don't make products for the people that hate stuff, they make the products for the people that love them. He also said that Infect as a mechanic has, "more friends than foes."
He also brought up the point that Infect isn't necessarily the best mechanic in Limited. It isn't the best strategy to have some of your creatures giving Poison counters while others are attacking the Life. You are actually splitting your strategy and chances are in Limited, you won't get the cards to go full Infect.
After reading Rosewater's responses, I think we will see Infect in the future. I don't think it will be in this Block.
Oh!! He also said that Proliferate could come back. That will be awesome!!
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #2
Also, Rashmi's invention is a trans-dimensional matter-mover. She's literally re-inventing planar gates.
October 5, 2016 2:10 p.m.