Upcoming B&R Announcement
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 24, 2019, 12:12 p.m. by heckproof
Hey all,
If you haven’t noticed, Modern kinda blows chunks to play right now because of Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis . Last B&R announcement, most everyone missed the fact that the big Ho was actually a problem card even without Bridge from Below , myself included.
The next B&R update is Monday the 26th (if I’m remembering correctly). I’m wondering what everyone’s view is on said announcement, so if it’s not too much trouble, I’d like everyone to respond with 4 things:
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What deck you mainly play in Modern
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What cards would you like to see banned (if any)
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What cards would you like to see unbanned (if any)
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What your prediction is for the actual announcement.
Or don’t, and feel free to respond however you like.
I’ll give my thoughts:
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I play mainly Skred Red and Mono-Green Stompy (in paper). I’m currently building Jeskai Draw-Go.
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I’d love to see a couple cards go. Mainly, I’d like to see Teferi, Time Raveler go. This ban will never happen in real life, but I wish it would simply for quality-of-life. T3f3ri leads to really unfun game states because he locks out interaction. I also feel like both Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting are problematical because they are absurd enablers. I don’t think they will be banned, but I feel they ought to be unless an unban occurs (I’ll talk about that in a minute). Finally, I’d like to see Hogaak go. I think I’ll get my wish; if not, I might be done with Modern for a while.
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Wizards has indicated that they don’t want to ban enablers like looting. I can understand that. That said, I believe Preordain needs an unban. The fact that Blue doesn’t have the best card selection spell in Modern baffles me. Which deck unfairly benefits from Preordain? U/R Storm is far from tier, and blue-based control often needs to hold up interaction turn one, making Opt a reasonable contender. In any case, it wouldn’t be broken. The glaringly obvious unban, however, is Stoneforge Mystic . Modern is a brutally fast format with either blazingly quick kills or crushing levels of interaction. A squire that maybe gets you a Batterskull or Sword of Light and Shadow on T3 doesn’t seem great to me, even in a grindy matchup. The only reason SFM is still banned is that it’s too expensive to let loose into Modern. If anyone sees a reprint set with SFM in it, expect to see an immediate unban.
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Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis will be banned. No other changes.
Oh, and one last thing, too: please, please be civil in this forum. The last time I asked about a B&R announcement, at least two guys devolved a conversation about Ancient Stirrings being okay for the format into a verbal slugfest. None of that, please. It’s tiresome and obnoxious; plus, you just come off like an incredible heel.
With all that aside, I’d love to hear from y’all!
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #3
I play 4 color (no green) midrange. Usually I play Grixis, but can't play without path to exile right now.
I want to see Manamorphose and Hogaak banned. Manamorphose is how we see Arclight Phoenix in play turn 2. and losing manamorphose wouldn't actually kill archetypes besides storm. It would bring looting decks into check, in my opinion. I do NOT want to see Ancient Stirrings , Allosaurus Rider , or Lotus Field banned. Ancient Stirrings decks have not caused problems recently. Yes, I see that Stirrings decks COULD take over the meta post-Hogaak, but out of fairness, we need to let them sin before punishing them. Neobrand and Twiddle Storm need to become tier 1 before you consider banning them. If they're not tier 1 then they're bad decks and don't matter.
I want to see stoneforge mystic unbanned. I certainly wouldn't mind Preordain, but hadn't considered it until OP suggested it. I don't think it will happen, but I want Splinter Twin back.
I predict Hogaak will be banned with no other changes. I give stoneforge 40/60, and will be shocked if something else is banned or unbanned. But someone from wizards (I think it was Maro) said Hogaak was a mistake. It's 100% getting banned.
August 24, 2019 1:52 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #4
Preordain should stay forever on Modern's banlist.
Modern has many flaws, but one thing it does right is keeping broken blue cantrips out of the format. We have Phoenix, UWx control, and Urza Thopter which are already doing well. There's absolutely no indication Modern needs better blue cantrips, considering the existing options already see play.
I support (though I don't realistically expect) Looting and Stirrings bans on the same principle. Modern should be the one nonrotating format that doesn't get defined by powerful cantrips.
August 24, 2019 2:01 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #5
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SnowShift, GDS, and U Tron.
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Nothing.
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SPLINTER TWIN. Modern will continue to have fast linear decks until the fun police comes off the list.
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Something is going to go from Hogaak, but not Hogaak itself.
August 24, 2019 2:25 p.m.
Dredge4life isn't splinter twin the poster boy for linear decks
August 24, 2019 2:34 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #7
shadow63 Splinter Twin is first and foremost a combo/control deck. The twin plan is what enables it to beat the hyper linear Aggro and pure combo decks. It runs Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, Cryptic Command, and a variety of other pieces of interaction to slow the opponent down, and games are often won from slow Snapcaster beatdown after a war of attrition. It’s partially a combo deck, but definitely not linear. It’s more of a control deck with a backup combo finish.
August 24, 2019 2:46 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #8
Twin only won with the combo about 50% of the time. There was a time when twin lists were only playing 3 copies of twin because comboing wasn't necessary. Beating down with creatures and burning out the opponent was a very common gamelan with the deck. And if you played an interactive deck, twin was the most fun matchup. There was so much interaction and counterplay and so many impactful decisions.
August 24, 2019 2:52 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #10
Neoform, if you can count that, building SnowShift.
I would love to see Hogaak banned, and I don't think even if he is selling packs that having such a broken deck in modern is making WoTC money, especially because some people are temporarily quitting because of him. I hate the static ability PWKRs, they are so staxy, and I wouldn't mind if they went, but I doubt it will happen. (Karn and Teferi mostly, I like Narset better for some reason.) If Faithless went, I wouldn't be sad, but I think Stirrings is the only reason so many decks are viable. I'm also wary of SFM, mostly because its good enough for Legacy, which has many more broken things you can do. I also think that jund is in a good place right now, and that I wouldn't risk that.
I would very much like to see Bridge from Below unbanned, because there is no need to kill the deck, just return it to a state where it is slightly better then it was, because of the other MH1 cards that were included. I also would like to see what Artifact lands and Hypergenesis would do to the format, as a test.
I believe Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis will be banned, with one other change to the format.
August 24, 2019 4:19 p.m.
Flooremoji Hypergenesis is busted with cascade. It would lead to people getting out turn 2 emrakul
August 24, 2019 4:39 p.m.
wallisface says... #12
I’m keen to see Hogaak and a Looting ban, though i know they won’t do the latter, and i’m concerned they might wrongly target something else besides the former (like Stitchers Supplier)
August 24, 2019 4:55 p.m.
I play Hogaak, Dredge, Ponza, and (occasionally) Mono-W Martyr.
Despite actually playing Hogaak, I think the card should be banned, and I fully expect it to be. Sure, I'm jamming as many matches as possible until Monday, but I'm going to be happy to desleeve my playset, as I think Modern will be better off with Gaak languishing in a cardboard box somewhere.
I don't think anything else should be banned nor will be ... at least not until we see what a post-Gaak meta looks like.
August 24, 2019 6:14 p.m.
Matt_The_OGRE says... #14
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I play mostly janky artifact decks.
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I would love a Krark-Clan Ironworks unban. I feel like they removed the wrong card from the eggs list. Ironworks wasn't a problem until Scrap Trawler was printed.
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To make up for unbanning ironworks, ban trawler.
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Ban the gak! Faithless Looting is also a possibility.
August 24, 2019 8:28 p.m.
psionictemplar says... #15
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I have versions of ponza, mono red storm, and a simic combo deck right now. Wanting to build a good enduring ideal list, but I'm not there yet.
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What do I want banned? As far as wanting something banned, I can't think of anything in particular.
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As far as unbanning goes, I'd like to have blazing shoal back. I'm a combo guy at heart.
- I expect hoogak banned in modern and that's probably going to be it.
August 24, 2019 8:35 p.m.
I play w/u control.
Cards I'd like to see banned: Mountain (or rather every red card in modern), red deck wins is just a deck that exists and punishes anyone who doesn't respect it, if hoggak didn't have red it'd be significantly less powerful.
Unbans I would love to see Stoneforge Mystic in the format, we're already in a format where people are running mainboard Disenchant effects so control players looking to avoid making themselves vulnerable to too many removal routes likely wouldn't even run it.
Bloodghast for all the same reasons why they banned bridge and people are wanting to ban hoggak, though honestly it would be interesting for them to ban non Prismatic Vista fetch lands, wotc has a history of choosing to weaken strategies by choosing the cards that slow down gameplay.
August 25, 2019 3:29 a.m.
loricatuslupus says... #17
I play Eldrazi Tron (without Karn, the Great Creator).
Hogaak has to go. They tried to pretend that he wasn't the issue by getting rid of Bridge, and that did almost nothing. When you have to think about removing multiple enablers then it's time to accept that the problem is whatever they're enabling. I personally would also like to see Mycosynth Lattice go, as I feel that is the main feel-bad lockout card that Karn brings (the K-man by himself isn't too busted).
Unbanning Bridge would be fair if Hogaak goes but tantamount to admitting they were wrong so won't happen. Both Stoneforge and Twin would be interesting, even if they get rebanned later.
I'd like to think Hogaak will go but I'm afraid it's more likely they'll remove another piece that other decks could also utilise, thus making them worse and eventually removing Hogaak indirectly because there won't be a shell for him to fit into properly.
August 25, 2019 8:10 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #18
I play UWx control, mostly Esper atm, but also straight UW. I also play a little GWx creature combo/toolbox in the Finks combo and Devoted Vizier as well.
I would like to Hogaak banned for sure. There's also like a million cards I couldn't care less about and would glad to see them go, but there's no reason to take immediate action -- Grapeshot, Looting, and Simian Spirit Guide are the main ones. Grapeshot because it's the #1 reason cards like Preordain are banned.
Unbans: I want SFM and Twin back as soon as possible. I also wouldn't mind seeing Pod, Dig, and Preordain come off the banlist. Maybe Ponder as well, not sure.
Prediction: Hogaak banned, SFM unbanned.
August 25, 2019 12:45 p.m.
Now that you mention it TheAnnihilator I really dont see pod as an issue with how fast the meta is
August 25, 2019 1:18 p.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #20
I find it ridiculous that some people think that unbanning Stoneforge Mystic is anything resembling a good idea.. I’m willing to bet that those who call for the unbanning of SFM have never sat across from one before.. Go play against a couple different competitive Stoneblade decks in Legacy, and tell me that wouldn’t be absolute cancer for the Modern format..
And don’t anybody give me that shit about comparing format dynamics. In Legacy I run -Eldrazi Stompy, which (aside from the manabase) is not all that different from what we saw during the infamous “Eldrazi Winter”.. Eldrazi Stompy was degenerate as hell, but Stoneblade decks are a nightmare to play against in comparison, and just like Eldrazi Stompy: most of the core spellset of competitive Stoneblade decks are already completely Modern legal (minus Umezawa's Jitte & Force of Will of course)
August 25, 2019 3:38 p.m. Edited.
That’s a fair and valid point, albeit an aggressively-phrased one at that. Nobody is denying that SFM is a good Magic card, because it wouldn’t see the play in Legacy that it does otherwise. I do think there is some issue with bringing the Legacy issue of Stoneblade into the Modern argument. The fact that cards like Force of Will and True-Name Nemesis and Brainstorm are not legal in Modern is exactly why I don’t think SFM would be oppressive. There’s a reason why Delver of Secrets Fliponly sees fringe play in Modern, where it’s always tier 1-tier 0 in Legacy. In addition, Stoneblade isn’t even particularly oppressive in Legacy given the current meta; last time I checked it’s like 3% of the meta (just below W/U Miracles).
That’s not to say that you’re wrong, in any case. I’d be the first to admit that Legacy is not my format, and it seems like you’re fairly knowledgeable on it. I’ve just been testing SFM in a variety of Modern decks recently and I’m not seeing the problem. Force of Negation is fine, but it’s no FoW.
Thanks for bringing up the point, though. I appreciate discussions where people don’t all just parrot the same thing and your comments finally spurred me to check out the Legacy metagame again for the first time in 3 or so months! :p
August 25, 2019 6:19 p.m.
wallisface says... #22
Regarding peoples hopes of an unbanning of something - my strong view is that Wizards have zero reason to do this unless they’re releasing a set which includes this card to make some cash (ala Jace).
The format has been healthy and diverse enough imo (excluding gaak issues) that they have no reason to unban a card except from a marketing/sales perspective.
If SFM (or whatever) ever sees an unban, it’ll be at a time when the very next set conveniently includes said card.
August 25, 2019 6:42 p.m.
Oloro_Magic says... #23
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I mainly play Ad Nauseam, though I also play 5-color Niv, Dredge (with and without gaak), Infect, GDS, Amulet, and Whirza these days.
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Firstly, I would like to preface by saying I hate when cards have to be banned and personally do not believe that one should ever genuinely hope for them to happen. All in all they rarely make anyone happy, the people who played the deck now are down their investment (as a former devoted KCI player I can speak from experience here) and everyone else both has to adjust to a fluctuating meta and, unfortunately, often turn their attention to other cards that are admittedly likely too good but not wholly broken. That being said, there come times where a card or deck comes to truly dominate the format to the point where the best part of modern is taken away. Gone is the feeling any deck can win on any given day, instead it can feel like you are wasting your time with the deck you have devoted yourself too, especially if you aren't someone who grinds tournaments taking the best positioned deck each time. Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis occupies this space where the deck is just too fast and too resilient for many decks in modern to contend with it, even when just about every deck is playing 4 Leyline of the Void in their 75. I personally believe, like most, that the head of the snake must be cut off, Hogaak is a broken magic card at least as far as modern is concerned at this point in time; which is not to say that the design is bad, in fact I love the design of the card it was just pushed a little too hard probably given where modern sits. Other options such as Stitcher's Supplier , Vengevine , Faithless Looting , and Carrion Feeder are the other cards I have seen discussed most as potential alternatives to Hogaak himself and while they all have their upsides I don't think its wise to continue to role the dice on whether or not Hogaak can survive, if anything I think Dredgegaak would likely become the best deck (assuming looting isn't the alternative choice which I believe would be right given how prevalent looting is and how vital it has become to the modern format and a wide variety of decks). Stitcher's Supplier + Vengevine is a situation I could be talked into but again I believe it is too risky to not just ban Hogaak. There are a few other cards that I think deserve some attention, namely Neoform , Wrenn and Six , and Urza, Lord High Artificer or Mox Opal , but while all these cards are powerful it would be premature to say any of them should be banned or even be considered for a ban. Hogaak has taken over modern so once the dust clears if any of these cards prove to be problematic and not easily adjusted too, maybe a serious look needs to begin to be taken. For now though, all are very good, but not meta warping in any way we have seen, which is the primary consideration I at least take in regards to bans.
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In the words of Todd Anderson, "if you can play Faithless Looting , I can play Ponder ." I don't believe its right that the best cantrip in modern isn't blue so would love to see one come back to us. For this announcement though I think the worst thing in the world would be to unban something. Everyone is still recovering from Hogaak and to introduce a new card to modern is the last thing we need right now as then we have to adjust to both Hogaak being gone or hampered and have this new card to adjust too and gameplan for.
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Modern - Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis is banned.
Other formats: (hoped for changes) Legacy - Wrenn and Six is banned (one can hope but unlikely) Vintage - Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted (honestly needs to happen, I know we are mainly talking about modern here but it baffles me that this card has been allowed to go untouched for so long; seems unlikely though given the deck isn't dominant)
August 25, 2019 8:04 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #24
Metroid_Hybrid I play Esper Delver Blade in Legacy, so I know my way around a Stoneforge Mystic. I do not think that Stoneforge Mystic would be cancer in modern at all. Blade decks are not oppressive in legacy.
As for stoneblade in legacy, the deck is tier 2 or 3. It is not oppressive in the least. Wrenn and Six + Wasteland is what oppression looks like. And the majority of cards in a stoneblade deck are actually not modern legal. Here is a sample list.. Of 40 nonland cards in the main deck, 14 are legal in modern. If I'm counting correctly, literally less than half.
But the tier level of a legacy deck is a very bad metric for modern power level. I think it's okay in modern because modern is a completely different format. I am absolutely comparing format dynamics; card power levels mean nothing without format context. Looking around, I'm struggling to see what modern deck can't beat a Batterskull . Burn can Searing Blaze your Stoneforge, which is awful for the stoneforge player. Hardcasting Batterskull on turn 5 is not good against burn. And if you do jam through a Batterskull, legacy burn players already know how to sideboard in Smash to Smithereens . I think even modern players can figure out how to do that. Jund has Kolaghan's Command . And Tarmogoyf is bigger than Batterskull . And Thoughtseize is so good vs Stoneforge. And they don't care about you gaining life, so Batterskull is just a 4/4 to them. When you play against Tron, stoneforge is slow. Attacking turn 4 with a 4/4 and a 1/2 is not a winning strategy. Mono-R Phoenix is in about the same position as Burn. Whirza doesn't care. E-tron plays bigger creatures, and can use Thought-Knot Seer to take your Batterskull away after you tutor it if it's that big of a deal. UR Pheonix flies over it or bounces your germ token. Or Flame Slash es your germ token. Gaining 4 life is nice against Phoenix decks, but connecting will be difficult. And even Humans can easily beat a Batterskull. They can go bigger with Thalia's Lieutenant or remove your token with Reflector Mage or Deputy of Detention .
Of course I know that Stoneforge Mystic will be a good card in some of those matchups. And I know that half the time you'll grab Sword of Feast and Famine instead of Batterskull . My point is that modern has the tools to deal with Stoneforge. It will not be oppressive on its own; it needs the support of a good deck to back it up. UW Stoneblade in legacy is a good deck because of True-Name Nemesis , not Stoneforge.
To address the case of a potential unban, I agree that WOTC will probably not unban it unless there is an upcoming reprint set. Some people may accuse WOTC for taking advantage of a money-grab, but consider the alternative: Stoneforge Mystic spikes to being a $100 card and the barrier to enter modern is even higher than usual. And without a reprint it will stay at $100 for awhile. This is not a reality you want. Having a reprint right after an unban is what players should want for the sake of card accessibility.
August 25, 2019 8:50 p.m. Edited.
Matt_The_OGRE says... #25
What would happen to modern if instead of a ban of gaak, they restrict it to 1 card per deck. Having a restricted list might make some cards interesting to move from banned to restricted.
August 25, 2019 10:12 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #26
Restrictions tend to cause a significant increase in game variance just based off who drew the restricted cards. (You can see this in Vintage.) In some cases, a restriction is essentially nothing, because the card will be tutored for or whatever anyways.
Modern's arguably enough of a dice roll as it is. If busted cards like Eye or Hogaak are restricted rather than banned, I'm basically left to wonder whether I might have a real game against Eldrazi/Dredgevine, or whether they got their restricted cards and I can go grab food.
The reason Vintage has a restricted list is because the very purpose of the format is to have a place where you may play any card (excluding ante etc), even if it's just a 1-of.
August 25, 2019 11:01 p.m.
I think for a restricted to list to work in modern you would still need a ban list and very few cards would be restricted
August 26, 2019 6:20 a.m.
wallisface says... #30
Everyone’s gunna be super stoked for SFM, and it looks like my “it has to be in a set” was hella-wrong... but i’m just giddy with joy over Looting finally getting the big-boot
August 26, 2019 4:08 p.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #31
Wow...
Let’s hope I’m wrong, but they did directly acknowledge in the article the possibility of un-banning Stoneforge Mystic leading to another Golgari Grave-Troll -type scenario..
Variations of Cawblade are now going to be a thing.. Mono-White Death & Taxes now has a fighting chance as well..
However, my money will be on something similar to what I’ve played against in Legacy becoming the dominant competitive variation(s)—Bant/4-color Midrange; Stoneforge Mystic , Tarmogoyf , Force of Negation in place of Force of Will , and Path to Exile in place of Swords to Plowshares ...
Adding gives access to things like Thoughtseize , as well Abrupt Decay & friends...
Adding would likely look more like a Delver of Secrets Flip-type deck..
shadow63 says... #2
Hoogak wont get the ban because its moving packs of horizons. I dont think there will be any unbans but they need to ban something else from the ho deck. My guess is gonna be vengevine
August 24, 2019 1:02 p.m.