The lack of Modern control
Modern forum
Posted on May 26, 2015, 2:30 p.m. by 2austin5
Hello everyone! When observing the modern format, it becomes very clear that it is dominated by aggro decks and combo decks.
To me, this is a sense of stagnation in a format. While modern does evolve and it does change, it always seems to change in direction of aggro and combo. The control archetypes (Tron, etc) end up being tier 1.5/2 depending on the meta whereas them main aggro (affinity, burn) and combo (bloom titan, infect, twin variations) are always the tier one without having to worry so much about the meta.
What is it that control does not have to keep a place at tier 1 in modern? What control decks, if any, stand a chance to get their and keep a place? Something Ive been looking at for a bit is Bant control, as I see within it the cards that can be used effectively both within itself and against the meta.
What are everyone else's thoughts? Can control break in and shake things up a bit? Is there a list that can be worked into the meta?
Thank you and discuss away!
Unforgivn_II says... #3
I think Ancestral Vision would help control a lot. Their reasoning behind the ban was that control decks would get too much advantage for a very small turn 1 investment. But, since control is worthless right now, I say bring it back. It would only be playable in tempo decks on turn 1, and even then you should be dropping a Delver
May 26, 2015 2:39 p.m.
Couldn't board wipes and spot removal hose the very aggressive strategies until control can get a hold?
May 26, 2015 2:45 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #5
I have been trying to push control in modern for ages and it has done pretty well for me. The reason it has little representation among the pros is for the 'weak against aggro' reason and also it being outclassed by many of the tempo decks.
May 26, 2015 2:47 p.m.
Frankly I see no reason to not blend the old modern control decks with some new dragon tech. Having 4 Dragonlord Ojutai is definitely slow in modern, but the access to having 4 actual Counterspell seems completely worth it.
I feel like people are not willing enough to experiment with control in modern. Modern is all about being proactive, reactive decks are just bad. As such, you cannot be a pure control deck and expect to do well. Need to evolve a bit, and become more midrangey.
May 26, 2015 2:48 p.m.
Eh pure control works pretty well if you use Silence, especially when paired with Snapcaster and Remand.
May 26, 2015 2:53 p.m.
Well another reason is that strict control decks have one or two dedicated win-conditions (ie, Celestial Colonnade in the classic example of American control), whereas midrange strategies have cards that all contribute to the cause of slowing the opponent and winning the game. It has just been ultimately found that midrange will always trump control decks in modern.
May 26, 2015 2:53 p.m.
awesomeguy37- what version of control have you been running and what have you seen work really well and also not work?
kyuuri117- I feel like that could be an interesting take on the format, and something like Bant could get the dragon lord out on turn 4 with one ramp creature so it doesn't seem that bad to test out.
How should the deck evolve though? While being proactive is always great, how proactive should it be? Should it be more reserved or just go in for the kill?
May 26, 2015 2:54 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #10
@kyuuri117 but then you're not a control deck but a midrange deck.
May 26, 2015 2:54 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #11
the other issue wizards faces is how to print cards that are good for control but not for combo. Control modern would totally be a viable archetype with access to Counterspell but combo decks with access to Counterspell would be even better.
May 26, 2015 2:55 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #12
Control needs ways to win faster... and therefore needs Misty, in my humble opinion! She's the reason why Esper control is still a thing in Legacy (along with FoW, of course).
May 26, 2015 3 p.m.
How does UWR control stand in todays meta? I play this deck, but almost exclusively with friends.
May 26, 2015 3 p.m.
UWR control with the Resto-Kiki combo as the win condition might be possible.
May 26, 2015 3:04 p.m.
ModernCentralPublic says... #15
I really don't understand at all why the lack of control decks makes a format stagnant. Midrange is superior now because the curve toppers printed in khans are so good that being a potato just isn't viable anymore.
In any case, I would much rather play a deck actively trying to kill me in the mid-game than a deck that potatoes the hell out of me like blue moon. Hell, id rather face infect than control, at least then I can have time to get food and take a break between rounds.
May 26, 2015 3:05 p.m.
Barry_McKawkinner says... #16
I want to play control but it cost alot to play a good control deck
May 26, 2015 3:05 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #17
misty would break modern. T3 batterskull in a 4 turn format is BAD.
May 26, 2015 3:06 p.m.
ModernCentralPublic - You would think that until people you have your first match against Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon Esper or Dimir with Haven of the Spirit Dragon.
Hm you know Dimir Skittles with Liliana of the Veil, Haven of the Spirit Dragon and Silumgar's Scorn might do some work as well. Time for more testing bwahahahaha
May 26, 2015 3:09 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #20
smackjack I think yeah. Stoneblade is the number 1 control deck in legacy and he was talking about it in the context of legacy control. Obviously he never faced cawblade...
May 26, 2015 3:11 p.m.
Gspot I disagree. I think proactive control is not the same thing as midrange. Midrange runs between twelve and eighteen creatures with a similar number of kill spells. Proactive control could run four to six threats, and have more kill/counter/card advantage spells.
Running 4 Ojutai, 0-1 Baneslayer Angel, 4 Noble Hierarch and a kill/counter/draw suite would still be a control deck, but it would close out games much quicker.
Or hell, just saw kengiczar post, BUG with 4 Skithiryx and 4 Noble Hierarch might work even better. Two turn clock.
May 26, 2015 3:11 p.m.
Epser control featuring discard might be a real possibility as well.
May 26, 2015 3:14 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #23
"as such, you cannot be a pure control deck and expect to do well. Need to evolve a bit, and become more midrangey." c'mon man... Your second post said control decks need more efficient clocks and answers, that's fair. But control is genrally a few wincons maybe a few utility creatures with the rest of the deck being answers/card advantage and modern hasn't had solid cards outside of what's ran in the and am midrange shell. I think Sri Lax wrote and article calling out wizards for that, leaving the same interaction b/g/x gets in legacy in modern, but with out blue based interaction on a similar power.
May 26, 2015 3:17 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #25
Honestly, just ban Snapcaster Mage at this point. Without that card in Modern, Wizards wouldn't have to purposefully keep control a bad deck, for fear that Blue would dominate Modern without being kept in check by keeping cards like Ancestral Vision banned.
Not sure if anyone else feels this way, though.
May 26, 2015 3:20 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #27
Also, NO to all the people here saying Stoneforge Mystic needs to be unbanned. That card would kill diversity, much in the same way that Birthing Pod and Green Sun's Zenith did.
May 26, 2015 3:21 p.m.
Control is an annoying archetype to play against, complex, hard to balance and very slow, not to mention some people find it really boring to play against and to play as, I think it's good control is no longer a predominant archetype, tournaments are faster and more entertaining, nobody enjoys having a one sided passive game in which your decisions do not matter and everything you cast is countered, removed/contained or returned to your hand.
May 26, 2015 3:37 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #29
@Ixidron control is a blast to play, just because you don't enjoy the archetype doesn't mean others don't nor that it shouldn't get support.
May 26, 2015 3:42 p.m. Edited.
I would probably be done playing if they banned Snapcaster Mage. Not because of the money I spent on mine (Got mine at great prices/from people leaving MTG) but because that is just not at all what needs to be done and will change things way to much without actually solving the problem.
Ancestral Vision isn't something i'd want in modern. It's to powerful. Gives Discard no chance of winning a tall.
Blue has most of the tools it needs, people just aren't willing to run them.
May 26, 2015 3:43 p.m.
"Blue has most of the tools it needs, people just aren't willing to run them."
This statement is completely false. Although it may have the tools, it's not a set of tools that can perform well in the current meta game. If this statement was true, we'd see at least one pro pilot a Jeskai or Grixis control build to a top 8 this year, but that's a thing of old modern. These days it's all about Burn and Midrange. It's not a matter of what people are willing to play, it's a matter of what people are going to play to find success, and currently control is not the answer to any of the powerhouse decks in this format.
May 26, 2015 4:07 p.m.
Unbanning Stoneforge Mystic would be terrible. The fact that an entire archetype of decks in legacy is based around it should be enough to inform people how over powered the card is.
May 26, 2015 4:11 p.m.
""Blue has most of the tools it needs, people just aren't willing to run them."
This statement is completely false. Although it may have the tools, it's not a set of tools that can perform well in the current meta game. If this statement was true, we'd see at least one pro pilot a Jeskai or Grixis control build to a top 8 this year, but that's a thing of old modern. "
You mean a Grixis deck like this? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9720&d=255943&f=MO
Or you mean a Jeskai deck like this? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9798&d=256497&f=MO
May 26, 2015 4:15 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #34
How is twin a uwr deck? Twin is also a combo deck that keeps control spells to buy time.
May 26, 2015 4:23 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #35
Ummm 
/x has always been a Control deck at heart. It used to dominate Modern and is still Tier 1.5. In modern Control of the black type annihilates control of the blue kind. I own a control deck and a 
deck and pit them against each other constantly. landslides the match up. Grixis is shitty colors for control. Esper has always been a thing. I don't know how you guys can playMagic and not encounter control my meta is saturated with Snapcaster Mage.
May 26, 2015 4:23 p.m.
It would be really fun to have Ancestral Vision tested out for 2 months off of the banlist... I will try to make Jund Cascade Aggro work with some top manipulation.
May 26, 2015 4:27 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #37
AppyD(if I may call you that) even though b/g plays control spells it is Not a control deck, it is midrange. Equal parts: Big creatures, slow value and disruption. I don't disagree with the rest of your statement about modern control though.
May 26, 2015 4:27 p.m.
@Gspot I did mention more reasons, but I think being highly disruptive to gameplay is more than enough, if enough people dislike it, or not enough people support it, it's only natural less and less cards will be printed for it and in turn more card will be printed for more entertaining, popular and profitable archetypes, combine that with its high complexity and innate difficulty to balance and both people and wizards begin losing interest.
Aggro cards are easy to design and balance, so a lot of them can be done, but control cards, those are different, you need to take into account lots of cards that can interact and potentially break the metagame, which makes them hard and more time consuming to design, that means less will be printed and those printed tend to be less innovative and stick to something that already works.
May 26, 2015 4:27 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #39
Mono Tron & Blue Moon are both successful control decks.
May 26, 2015 4:28 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #40
"highly disruptive to gameplay is more than enough" that is literally the plan of control, do you want to play against another non interactive deck? What level of interactivity is too un fun? Fun is subjective and wotc makes bans around what is oppressive to the format, not what give you the feels bads.
May 26, 2015 4:32 p.m.
Gspot I'm pretty sure Twin is mostly a 
deck. Which is the color scheme of Jeskai, why is why I used it to reply to vishnarg.
I'm not saying control is the best, just that it does have some type of interaction with the opponent on every turn available. I'll admit the interaction could be better though.
Perhaps making some Faerie verion of Dash Hopes where you get to choose the mode would be alright. Also having a remand where if you control a Wizard for example means they don't put it back in their hand would be dope. Just some ideas. Whatever the deal is, I trust WotC to eventually make some better blue cards that aren't just slotted into every BUG, Jeskai or Esper deck. And then those cards will get banned.
May 26, 2015 4:36 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #42
It is a control deck... Dissect the deck, it's Mono Black Control splashed for a better creature base... It also plays best as a Control deck. It trades counters for disruption focuses on board control where traditional control focuses more on the player control deciding what does and doesn't get cast. It can swap to Aggro on the fly but that is something most top tier decks share. Control is prevalent it's just that Blue is the weaker color in modern. If you wanted to make it work is probably the right colors...
May 26, 2015 4:38 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #44
@ APPLE01DOJ the deck your profile that is true(i really like that variant btw I think I +1d it a while ago.) but the common bgx decks run 15 or more creatures and equally as many spells. These decks aren't focused on suppressing the opponent until they drop a finisher (like yours) they play the midrange grindy game with efficient creatures and strong disruption.
May 26, 2015 4:45 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #45
Twin is a deck. Comes in Tarmotwin & living End flavor... Have yet to play against a Jeskai version... I imagine the white splash is for Restoration Angel & Path to Exile? Maybe Boros Charm?
May 26, 2015 4:47 p.m.
Gspot There is a difference between interactive and disruptive, disruptive doesn't allow you play, the game is one sided if you are playing against that kind of decks you become an spectator not a player.
Wizards of the coast is a business, hence it needs to make money, it makes money by selling cards so people can play a game and have fun, if they make an archetype that annoys enough people then less people play, profits go down, it's also an archetype that takes more time to design, costs go up, if costs go up and profits go down bad things happen.
Fun might be relative, numbers are not, if not enough people support control then there is no reason to spend any more time and money than necessary in designing cards for it.
The opposite is also truth, if aggro is more popular and cards are easy and cheap to design it's only natural to make more cards for an archetype that attacks more clients and money.
May 26, 2015 4:55 p.m.
LordGrendel says... #48
APPLE01DOJ Jeskai version runs Wall of Omens, Path to Exile, Lightning Helixand usually Restoration Angel.
Its Twin flavor, but is by no means the most prevalent.
May 26, 2015 5:01 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #49
Ixidron I don't know where you found info that making control cards costs wotc money but that's unsupported at best. If you don't like control great but this is really derailing from the Op's question.
May 26, 2015 5:01 p.m.
I never liked playing Tarmogoyf. I rather Spell Snare it and go on with my slow but steady plan. Control is not dead, and we have all the tools we need. A good pilot is all thats left..
vishnarg says... #2
Control is naturally weak to Aggro decks, and Wizards has only stimulated aggro and midrange decks over the last 3 years with things such as Monastery Swiftspear, Siege Rhino, Delver of Secrets Flip, etc etc. They don't print innovative new counter-spells or other such control spells, because they fear putting the format in the hands of control decks. They are content, however, making the top decks Abzan and Burn.
Tl;dr Wizards is lazy and sucks at modern.
May 26, 2015 2:39 p.m.