So I have an interesting Grixis Modern brew I wanna talk about...
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 30, 2019, 6:52 p.m. by jaymc1130
I've been playing some Modern lately ever since the unbanning of Stoneforge Mystic as this is one of my all time favorite cards as well as all time favorite archetypes. I love control decks in constructed play, I love the style, the thought required to play the decks correctly, the feeling of solving a puzzle when you manage to win with them. Naturally with SFM's return I brewed up a handful of decks, got as up to speed on the Modern Format as I could, and started playtesting Stoneblade brews and the various top decks in the format.
Having tried a number of different variations of the Stoneblade concept against the format staples I began to notice a bit of a pattern. Namely, that the wins with the archetype were most often not coming from lines related to SFM at all, but rather establishing complete control over the game state and abusing
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
to Fate Seal the way to victory. All of this got me thinking about what I enjoyed most about the deck and I realized it wasn't actually SFM at all.
It was Jace.
The dude is a bad, bad mama jamma. I got to thinking about things some more and wondered if just building around Jace as the primary focus was a concept that could work. I decided on Grixis colors and got to brewing. I tried a number of ideas but eventually realized Jace alone wouldn't be getting the job done as often as I'd like and started looking for a partner in crime for him. The usual suspects got tried like
Liliana of the Veil
and seemed underwhelming. Then I figured if I was working this angle why not give something that seems almost unplayable in Modern a shot:
Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
. The play pattern of the deck tended toward lots of longer games, a lot of draw-go hand shredding that disrupted play patterns of format staples to allow for these longer game play patterns to be relevant, and a lot of fun testing the idea.
Having put the concept through some paces I've arrived at what I think is actually a viable core of the deck. which can be found here: Bolas Control. What I'd like from any of you who might happen to read this is your thoughts on Modern in general, potential tweaks and alterations to the deck that could improve it, matchup considerations, and general questions, comments, and concerns.
I think this concept could be quite a bit of fun to toss around as an idea and fine tune, so let me know what ya think folks
Hey there Asturonethoriusaline, thanks for dropping by!
I think you highly overrate the meta at the moment in terms of it's speed and the effectiveness of control variants within it. I've been testing this deck some already against meta staples and with the list I'm currently working from I have yet to find a truly bad matchup. There are still plenty of decks for me to test it against, mind you, but the most prevalent meta decks seem to fare very poorly against this concoction when it is played properly. Burn has an abysmal matchup, decks relying on lands as a primary component have extreme difficulty, particularly when the Field of Ruin count is upped to 4 in main, the only midrange matchup that has fared even moderately well is Jund so far and Jund still seems to be at a disadvantage pre and post board. Neoform decks seem to either win on turn 1 or 2 or never, edge to the control deck pre and post board. Nothing remotely creature based has fared well against it at all.
I think, at the moment, the most difficult matchups I've tested it against are other control variants in the meta, Death and Taxes, Stoneblade variants, etc.
Not that I think that most slower paced or focused decks will be strong in the meta in general, but this particular brew and the play patterns it forces in game have been largely very effective against exactly the types of decks you would think it would not be effective against. Believe me when I tell you that I found this as surprising as you do. It was quite the shock. I think a big part of it has to do with many of the decks in the meta becoming so focused on doing the thing they do quickly that they've given up the ability to gain advantages over time and thus they falter pretty heavily when forced into a play pattern that makes them play a protracted game.
I've got more testing to do, for certain, as I've only really tested against the top meta decks at the moment and have yet to delve into the more fringe decks in terms of matchups, but I'll be sure to relay that data to you when I get a chance.
September 30, 2019 9:05 p.m.
Asturonethoriusaline says... #4
I'm still Skeptical. You MIGHT be right, now that Faithless looting, has been banned, and that Hollow one, Hogaak, Phoenix are not as fast.
Pre Faithless Looting ban, I dont think your deck would consistently beat those tier 1 FAST, win on turns 1,2,3 decks.
Also Red deck wins, Goblin, Humans, aggro, etc, is SUPER FAST, wins on turns 2,3,4.
Take my Kuldotha Rebirth Goblin Bushwhacker, Battlecry, semi burn, mono red deck.
It has:
60 cards, 21 lands. 4 Mox Opals.
20 creatures.
4 0 cmc Memnites(1/1) 4 1 cmc signal pest(battlecry +1+0). 4 1 cmc Goblin Bushwhackers(1/1 kicker 1 red 2/2 haste +1+1 to all creatures) 2 Goblin Wardrivers(2/2, Battlecry) 2 Goblin Rabblemasters(2/2, produces 1/1 goblins with haste each combat phase) 2. Goblin Chieftan(2/2 haste, gives haste, +1+1, to all goblins)
16 artifacts
4 Kuldotha Rebirths(turns a artifact into 3 1/1 goblins)
4 Goblin Grenades
4 lightning Bolts
3 Shrapnel Blast.
The deck usually wins on turns 3/4, 3.5. But occasionally once in great while wins on turn 2.
Usually wins by no later then turn 5,6, 5.5, worst case acenario.
And thats without mulliganning.
If I mulligan or double mulligan or worst case scenario tripple mulligan. The deck wins on turns 2,3,4 almost every time.
And on the extremely rare times it doesnt. It doesnt run out of steam, fizzle, because:
-
Goblin Piledriver gets big(17/3)
-
Even if board wipe, either the burn will finish the job, or just reload put more goblins out
-
Even if counterspell, remove a goblin, its no big deal, because the deck has the VOLTRONIC goblin effect, where the goblins individually not great, but collectively, synergistically, their awesome.
So because of that, only way to really shut deck down is to boardwipe goblins multiple times, and counterspell all the burn.
And the deck has great pick your poison, bait and switch, to frustrate counterspells, unless have 16+ counterspells in deck, and unless counterspell 5 to 9 times per game.
And thats just my deck, and its not as good as the tier 1 decks that you say you beat.
Also when you say your deck is beating the top tier decks, some questions, things to keep in mind:
- Are the decks built right?
- Are they being played right?
- Are the players playing the decks, good players?
- Are the players playing those decks mulliganning, and double mulliganning to make sure they have good starting hands, draws.
My guess the answer to at least some of those questions are no.
It seems that your saying that the top tier decks you beat, are having games stretch out, not winning fast turns 1,2,3.
The best explanation for that, is that those decks are fizzling out, and that the reason for that is because:
- Bad draws
- Not good starting hands
- Not mulliganning.
Etc.
Also what is the SAMPLE size?
If the sample size is small, then cant go by that.
Why?
Because in short term, almost anything can happen
But over the long term, draws, odds, mechanics, etc, will win over the long term
So your deck need to be able to beat each top tier deck CONSISTENTLY about 25 to 250 to 2500 times each, before can say, before believe what your saying about control.
October 1, 2019 12:28 a.m.
Well lets start with the Faithless Looting ban. Absolutely, under no circumstances what so ever, would this brew be even remotely competitive in a world where Faithless Looting still enabled the shenanigans it was enabling. Zero chance of that. With the format slowing down and the return of SFM it's clear the direction WotC is pushing the format and it certainly has been pushed. Pretty hard in fact. There are a number of decks left in the format that are potently threatening by turn 3 but really only the one left that can win prior to turn 3 with any consistency in Neoform. Unfortunately for Neoform it's a gamble deck, you either get luck with it, go big on turns one or 2, or you don't ever win. It's also highly inconsistent overall and extremely vulnerable to disruptive elements pre side board. That leaves the faster decks that reliably win being things like Tron, Jund, and Burn which threaten wins by turn 4 pretty consistently (either due to outright damage or an unbeatable board state). In a world where turn 4 is going to be the average point the fastest decks can win, with turn 3 being an outlier and only one potentially faster deck that is vulnerable to Bolas's primary game plan of being very disruptive very early, it puts Bolas in a position to be relevant. Good? I dunno. I really don't have enough data yet to say. Interesting? Certainly.
In terms of combating most aggro decks like your Goblin brew the play pattern is pretty standard, not every "threat" is a real threat. There are always a couple of key cards that make the synergistic elements function and without those pieces these types of aggressive strategies tend to falter. Target discard and other disruptive elements have always, historically, been the bane of these types of strategies and it's exactly these types of things Bolas is going to be making good use of. Particularly since the printing of Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, heavy counterspell packages have become less impactful than the preemptive and less mana expensive discard options that are usually much more effective.
In terms of playtesting it's being mostly done by myself, against myself as I pilot a ton of decks in the format trying to get as familiar with it as quickly as possible. Occasionally some members of my playgroup will play with me, and all 4 of us are ex professional and semi professional players. Of the 4 of us I'm actually the least successful having never top 8'd a PT or GP that each of the others can boast. The quality of the players definitely shouldn't be in question. The quality of our knowledge of the current Modern meta is liable, however, to be a bit circumspect as we mostly have played Commander for the last 2 and a half years. While not every game has been played perfectly, having play tested almost 100 matches now the quality of play is substantially improved and very close to what one might expect from your average professional player of today. A number of mistakes had to be expected early in the testing process as we refamiliarized ourselves with the format.
As for the sample size, nearly 100 games is not even remotely close to what I would consider a viable data set overall. Particularly when I've only had about a dozen matches against a small portion of the meta and only about 8 different archetypes. I started with the most prevalent ones, sure, that seemed common sense, but I have plenty of relevant matchups to still test to have good data on the meta at large (Humans, Whirza, Abzan, Rock, Bant Spirits, BW Eldrazi, the list goes on for the less representative decks). Acquiring data against the most popular and most present decks first tends to be important as if you can't beat the most common matchups there isn't much point to being good against the less represented archetypes.
There's still a lot of work to be done with this idea before I can feel justified in touting it as any kind of a potential powerhouse, but early results thus far have been pretty promising which is exactly why I found it interesting and brought it up to the community for them to play around with too. The more data we can get on it the better we can analyze the concept for what it is.
October 1, 2019 1:08 a.m. Edited.
I’ve been out of the modern meta for way too long to make any definitive statements here... but your burn matchup looks really rough. No removal before turn 3 if you don’t draw
Fatal Push
, forced discard is notoriously lackluster against a deck of basically all
Lightning Bolt
, little in the way of blockers... I mean yeah you could always get lucky and take the play with
Inquisition of Kozilek
,
Snapcaster Mage
x2, and a Bolas to try to close the game fast... but that’s not a consistent gameplan.
Spell Snare
stands out as an interesting call to me. Has modern really returned to a spot where snare is good again?
The most valuable feedback you could get regarding modern Grixis would come from ToolmasterOfBrainerd.
October 1, 2019 8:57 a.m.
Sorry to hijack the thread, even for a moment. Spell Snare is quite good right now and I think most control decks ought to be running 1-2. Consider how many strategies at the moment center around 2-drops. Snare hits Stoneforge Mystic out of Stoneblade, Tarmogoyf and Wrenn and Six out of Jund (with W6 being the higher priority; I think it may be stealthily too good for Modern), both halves of the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo out of Whirza (admittedly they tutor for the combo most of the time, but Spell Snare has also saved my butt a number of times in this case), and even some of the relevant Burn spells in the matchup (countering Eidolon of the Great Revel will save your life). If you control players aren’t running Spell Snare , why not? It’s great. Run it!!
Okay, semi-topical rant over. In regards to your brew, I would say that you could use some more play against Burn. In general, I would say don’t play counterspells and targeted discard in the same deck because it makes your gameplan awkward. Stick to either instant or sorcery speed control. There’s a guy named Corey Burkhart who’s a phenomenal Grixis player. I’d imagine he’s probably playing some form of Grixis Control, so I would look at how he sideboards and what his removal ratio is like.
I think that’s about all I got. Hope this helped in some way!
October 1, 2019 10:01 a.m.
Hey heckproof! Thanks for mentioning Corey, I'll definitely be checking out his stuff for some insight. Every scrap of info I can gather is going to help if this idea is something I'd like to get off the ground.
October 1, 2019 4:14 p.m. Edited.
@ DuTogira
The matchup versus burn hasn't seemed too tough in limited testing so far. Thoughtseize sucks, but Inquisition puts in work. I've been updating this list as I work on new variantions and last night was Jund night so the current list reflects some of the most recent changes based on that matchup. Initially there were 4 Lightning Bolts in here and Burn got to play against that set up. Between hacking half of Burns hand away and preventing them from ever having a board threat at all Burn did not fare well losing the majority of it's test matches, particularly on the play (which was interesting indeed). Small sample size, I'll definitely get in more testing against it and have better data for you later.
October 1, 2019 4:20 p.m.
Deck seems really cool to play, the best thing to do if you're actually wanting useful feedback is to actually play it against other people playing real and good tier decks (Humans, Hardened Scales, Jund, Whirza, U/W Control ect ect) and see what the matchups feel like, what's good and what feels weaker, are you winning games against them? What is putting in work in those games? What is feeling lackluster? Are those cards consistently good/bad? What do you need against some of these matchups to keep your deck going strong? It looks like fun to play but there's always the issue of matchups and finding out what's playable and what's just not quite good enough. This process is wayyyy more pronounced In a control deck as you're more reliant on dealing with what your opponent is doing. Aggro decks don't need as much matchup testing because they can just kinda throw more fuel into the fire and turn more things sideways, point more bolts at the face. Control and Control variants need fine tuning and a lot more pilot skill.
If you're able to get some trial matches on cockatrice or xmage or untap.in or whatever else people use online then go for it, or better yet play at a LGS if you have the appropriate cards in paper (Proxy them for testing if you've not)
Asturonethoriusaline says... #2
The problem with pure control decks in Modern, is that there are too many win on turns 1,2,3 decks, that are either graveyard, Tribal Horde, with Cavern of Souls, infect, combo decks, etc, that SHUT DOWN CONTROL OF PURE CONTROL.
For control decks to work, they need, have to be SEMI CONTROL, semi counterspell, semi removal, etc, COMBINED, MIXED with, semi aggro, semi mid range, semi combo, that can win on turns 3,4,5,6, thru some mix of semi control and semi aggro, and semi mid range, and or win on turns 7 to 13, thru some mix of semi aggro, semi combo, semi control.
Such a deck is possible to make.
There is, are:
Blue, Black, White, Red: Blue, black, white provides the control, and white, red the semi aggro, etc.
Blue, Black, White, Green: Same as above, with white, green being the semi aggro
Blue, Black, Green, Red
Blue, White, Green, Red
Blue, White, Red
Blue, Green, Red.
Blue, Black, Red, Grixis, wont work, unless you either go with either semi red deck wins, semi aggro components, or semi goblin components, mixed with Semi control components.
Blue, Black. Red, Grixis is harder to do what I am talking about then the other color combos I mentioned.
In any case, PURE DEDICATED control probably wont work in the current COMPETITIVE, AGGRO, combo, graveyard, win on turns 1,2,3 MODERN META.
Modern needs to slow down a little tiny bit to win on by turns 3,4,5,6, instead of win by on turns 1,2,3, before PURE CONTROL can become viable again in MODERN again.
Sorry to naysay what you want to do.
Wish it was otherwise.
But if you already know that, dont care, want to play Grixis, PURE CONTROL anyways, then more power to you.
September 30, 2019 8:43 p.m.