Modern shouldnt have a ban list. Change my mind.
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 19, 2019, 12:54 p.m. by Icbrgr
Admittedly there are some very powerful (and annoying) cards on the Modern ban list such as Deathrite Shaman , Sensei's Divining Top , Chrome Mox ect ect. But do these cards printed from 8th Edition onward (excluding duel deck/UNsets ect) really make the game/format unplayable?
A few weeks back I saw a thread talking about Splinter Twin / Birthing Pod aand honestly just read a lot of commentary that i thought made a pretty convincing case for why they should be unbanned.... The commentary got me curious to look into what the banned list for modern really looks like....and it got me wondering...
Why are these cards banned? and could their be a compromise in the format by changing banned cards to restricted (you can only have one of them in your main deck and sideboard combined)?.... or is the possibility of one copy of Mental Misstep in anyone's deck just too much for the format to handle?
In case anyone wants to see whats Banned in Modern.
SynergyBuild says... #3
Oh, I forgot Dig and Cruise would be unbanned. You know, cards so powerful they are banned in legacy and needed to be restricted in Vintage?
Okay. So storm could be really good too.
February 19, 2019 12:59 p.m.
Artefact lands would be degenerate with Affinity, since they are effectively unrestricted two-mana lands.
I once heard someone call Deathrite Shaman “the best planeswalker in Legacy”, a statement I find pretty accurate. Its versatility is absurd. Need graveyard hate? DS. Ramp? DS. A non-Green mama dork? DS. To cause direct life loss? DS. Healing? DS.
It both puts you ahead and shuts down several other decks, all for an extremely easy to cast cost. It is an all around fantastic card, probably too powerful for a modern 1-Drop.
Golgari Grave-Troll makes Dredge far too powerful, as you can dump it early and start filling your graveyard 6 cards at a time.
Chrome Mox puts you on turn 2 on turn 1. Every deck would run this, which causes limitations on deck building, and games would often be decided by who mulligans the least to get their Chrome Mox . Not to mention the fact it allows turn 1.5 Mana Leak for the starting player.
Eye of Ugin is terrifying, particularly with Tron.
KCI was banned because it was taking over the meta (and, to a lesser extent, because it is a bit of a mess in terms of timing, which makes it often used incorrectly by those who netdeck without an intimate understanding of the deck).
Mental Misstep is a free Counterspell that shuts down turn one plays.
With regards to a Modern restricted list, I am not a fan of this idea. It makes games far too dependent on luck of the draw - one of the big problems in Vintage. A ban list is cleaner and better for the health of the format; Vintage only gets a special exception because a restricted list is necessary to make the game playable while having no cards banned for power.
February 19, 2019 1:20 p.m. Edited.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #5
MNBL (modern no ban list) is sort of a format. There was a tournament organized by Randy Buehler and all the coverage is on YouTube. It looks like a super fun format.
It's a very different format from modern. It's defined by the banned cards because they're so powerful.
Miracles isn't the only deck in the format. Elves actually won that tournament because of Glimpse of Nature and Skullclamp . But there are plenty of powerful and viable deck options.
Personally I'd love it if MNBL had more support. It plays a lot like legacy, but without the cost of duals.
February 19, 2019 1:39 p.m.
I think some cards need to be looked at to be taken off the list like Stoneforge Mystic and maybe Birthing Pod but a ton of the cards on the list would just be degenerate and bring the format to stale state
February 19, 2019 1:50 p.m.
Forgive the off-topic question but I'm completely blanking. When does Ixalan rotate? I need some of those Carnage Tyrants in Modern and they're way too expensive.
February 19, 2019 2:11 p.m.
DAWT_PLAWT says... #8
Personally, I think that more formats should adapt the points list, as it lets people play their favorite cards, to an extent. Also, canlanders meta is super diverse at the moment, as opposed to moderns roughly 5 decks
February 19, 2019 2:20 p.m.
wallisface says... #9
DAWT_PLAWT modern “having 5 decks” is a bit unfair - it’s easily one of the more diverse formats at the moment.
Getting on topic, i think the current health of modern is the biggest reason not to mess with the ban list. If it were already a burning tyre-yard, then i’d not really care, but it seems to be in a good-way as-of-late, and there’s probably merit in keeping it that way.
February 19, 2019 3 p.m.
rockleemyhero says... #10
It would need force of will to keep it in check. That’s why legacy can get away with the broken cards and modern can’t handle them. Misstep is great but not enough on its own. Also, everyone running 4 missteps would be an extremely stale deckbuilding restriction.
February 19, 2019 3:09 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #11
The price of modern would go up at the very least, because the format would become less diverse. Many of these cards would make storm decks oppresive, not to mention other combo decks.
February 19, 2019 3:25 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #12
To be fair, I think the cards that break legacy aren't in modern. Dark Ritual , Reanimate and all its cousins, and Show and Tell come to mind first. I think Hypergenesis and Blazing Shoal are the only problem cards in MNBL that Force of Will would fix, but there are other ways to fight those decks.
February 19, 2019 3:28 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd - I disagree, a lot of the cards that break legacy are in Modern, and therein lies the problem.
Looking at MTGTop8, the top few Legacy decks right now are:
Miracles - 8% - while you loose a lot with the transition from Modern to legacy ( Force of Will , Counterspell , and Brainstorm ), the core of Legacy Miracles is Terminus and an aggressive pack of topdeck manipulation ( Ponder , Brainstorm , and Jace, the Mind Sculptor ).
Removing the Modern banlist would allow you to hit the critical "8- Ponder " necessary for Miracles, using Ponder and Serum Visions . You would also get Gitaxian Probe , which is banned in Legacy.
Ultimately, you lose some of the control spells in the transition from Legacy to MNBL, but the core elements of the deck still will work.
Stoneblade - 8% - the core of this deck is Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull , Umezawa's Jitte , and Sword of Fire and Ice , all Modern-era cards.. With the exception of True-Name Nemesis , the remainder of the deck tech would need some adjustments, but nothing that would break the core elements of the deck.
Eldrazi Aggro - 7% - Most of this deck is Modern-era. The loss of Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith will be a huge blow to the deck, but you are still getting Eye of Ugin in MNBL.
This deck might lose its core ramp package in the switch to Modern, but there's already a similar Modern deck--Tron--which would happily take the Eye of Ugin , so you would still end up with a powerful Eldrazi deck.
Note, Tron is not played in Legacy not because it not good enough for the format, but because Wasteland is legal.
A lot of the core components of many top Legacy decks are from the Modern-era (in fact, 11 of the top 20 cards in Legacy are Modern-era cards). The biggest losses when moving from Legacy to Modern are not the core threats of the decks, but rather some of their control elements. Many of the decks themselves would survive and thrive in the slower Modern environment if the Modern banlist was removed.
February 19, 2019 4:04 p.m.
From what i see a lot of "Boogiemen" that people talk about...seem to have existing answers in the format already....
Storm decks would be answered in the same way that they are dealt with now. and if not then people will probably run more Chalice of the Void , Mindbreak Trap , Trinisphere and Simian Spirit Guide and others.
miricles are kept in check with Chalice of the Void / Abrupt Decay .... Cavern of Souls , Aether Vial ...
Deathrite Shaman is a creature at the end of the day... dies to removal and an be countered.
Golgari Grave-Troll .....there is just tons of graveyard hate in the format
Eye of Ugin ... we have Blood Moon , Alpine Moon , Damping Sphere , Ghost Quarter , Field of Ruin
Mental Misstep is a free Counterspell that shuts down turn one plays.... i just think that would be healthy for hypothetically unbanning other spells at the end of the day.
While i do agree that a Ban list is cleaner...I just wanna be an advocate for a restricted list for the cards that cant be dealt with with the Modern card pool.
there are a lot of powerful decks around today that are very very good but not unbeatable... just like unbanning Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Simian Spirit Guide recently it changed the landscape a bit but we didnt lose Modern over it.
February 19, 2019 4:06 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #15
cdkime you just listed a bunch of fair decks. Those aren't why you would need Force of Will . Force keeps turn 1 glass cannon combo from breaking legacy. I claim that those glass cannon decks are either kept in check by Mental Misstep or the cards they need aren't in modern.
Tron isn't good in MNBL. The big mana deck becomes 12-post. Probably eldrazi-post.
February 19, 2019 4:31 p.m.
Will361405 says... #16
Let's see, you run 4x chrome mox in almost every deck, almost all decks run 4x gitaxian probe, almost, and probably all run mental misstep. Thats 12 cards out of 60 to be almost having to run. Not to mention that i don't think the restricted list would work. It's whoever draws they're busted cards first.format like elves for example. If they draw skullclamp or glimpse of nature you will almost have no chance. I just don't see that being healthy. Not to mention that modern would speed up DRAMATICALLY. You can say that there are ways to fight it but, there are only so many sideboard slots. You can make the dies to removal argument all day about deathrite shaman, but at the end of the day it was powerful enough to get banned in almost everywhere. Yea it dies to everything, but the problem arises from when you don't kill it. Then your opponent get it and you don't. Modern would almost surely fall to a busted turn 2 or ever turn 1 format. Not to mention it would kill A TON of decks. Any merfolk player would be pushed out of the format, as well as many others. I just can't see it being healthy. Not to mention how messed up the price of cards would be. Modern would explode in price of entery.
February 19, 2019 6:38 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #17
Will361405 Not every deck would run Chrome Mox, in the same way that not every Legacy deck runs Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond or Dark Ritual . All of those are legal but no fair deck plays them. Card disadvantage for acceleration isn't always worth it. Similarly not many decks play Gitaxian Probe . Not every modern deck played it when before it was banned. Why would they play it now? Every deck does play 4 Mental Misstep , except those that play Chalice of the Void . But Misstep is extremely good for keeping all the broken unfair stuff in check. It requires the degenerate decks to have some level of resilience.
Yeah the current modern meta dies. This is a different format, so of course the tiered modern decks aren't viable. But screw the current modern meta. Screw humans, screw spirits, and screw Phoenix.
Elves is a very good deck in MNBL. Glimpse and Skullclamp are great cards. Except that they die to Mental Misstep . And it's a creature deck, so it's extremely vulnerable to Terminus (recall that miracles has a lot of toys on the ban list). And Elves is very bad at interacting, so the faster combo decks can also beat it. My point is that the meta wouldn't be unbalanced and busted. All MNBL that has been played shows that it's actually a really healthy and fair format.
February 19, 2019 6:58 p.m.
Will361405 says... #18
In all fairness though I don't see how it would be good for modern. How is giving a deck like affinity it's artifact lands going to be good. No banlist modern is a fun format, but now imagine if EVERYONE that plays modern was focusing on how to break it. Not saying the decks aren't great, but it seems far too likely for one deck to be the default best deck. Also I still can't see a way for justifying the toll on the secondary market. The value of so many cards would plummet, while others skyrocket.
February 19, 2019 7:22 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #19
Icbrgr: i don't recall Simian Spirit Guide being banned. do you mean Bloodbraid Elf ? .
and how do any of the cards you listed stop miracles?
storm decks wouldnt "really" be stopped the same way if there was no banlist. they'd be too fast.
"dies to removal" has always been a weak argument.
"graveyard hate" doesn't change the fact that while you're waiting to draw it, Golgari Grave-Troll just speeds up dredge too much.
Eye of Ugin isn't stopped by Damping Sphere , and using your land destruction on it means you're not destroying the tron lands themselves. the tron player will still be casting huge threats.
February 19, 2019 7:52 p.m.
PlatinumOne sorry i wasnt too specific in my bullet points earlier. no Simian Spirit Guide isnt currently banned (but it was until recently) and i meant to say that it would be used to help cast Trinisphere .
Abrupt Decay is cannot be countered and blows up Counterbalance / Sensei's Divining Top . Chalice of the Void nukes the 0-2cmc shenanigans.
dies to removal is basically a meme at this point but c'mon its true... Deathrite Shaman only hase 2 toughness doesnt have haste/shroud/hexproof/indestructible...can be named with Pithing Needle ...can be countered can be discarded.
Golgari Grave-Troll is great just like Stinkweed Imp ... just bounce it with Vapor Snag ... insert grayvard removal like Nihil Spellbomb or Rest in Peace or Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus ...why cant i hold all this graveyard removal?
Eye of Ugin isn't stopped by Damping Sphere but the other typical tron lands like Urza's Mine , Urza's Power Plant and Urza's Tower dont like it... Blood Moon and other options like Tectonic Edge or better exist.
February 19, 2019 8:27 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #21
Icbrgr: Simian Spirit Guide has been legal the entire time i've played modern for the last few years. do you have any source or a timeframe for when it was banned?
February 19, 2019 9:04 p.m.
looks like I was mistaken about Simian Spirit Guide PlatinumOne... i did a google search and came up empty at least as far as this ban list timeline is concerned. Nevertheless its still a good tool to be used both in and against decks out there.
Will361405 are artifact lands like Ancient Den not able to by blown up with artifact removal like Crush / Nature's Claim ?
February 19, 2019 10:05 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #23
artifact lands can be blown up by any artifact removal, but do you really want Mox Opal to be that much easier to get online? or for every single land in affinity to count for Cranial Plating ? and if you're trying to use artifact removal on their lands, you have less of it to use on their actual threats.
February 19, 2019 10:14 p.m.
Yeah i dont challenge the fact that good decks would be made that much better with banning the ban... my endgame is basically that in a modern format with no banlist (or resort to a restricted list for the exceptions) there are tools available to prevent the format from being dominated by a single decks.... take affinity for example as an aggro deck...turbofog can ruin its day on a budget... there are lots of ways to blow up individual/all artifacts... and there are lots of tools available to slow down fast casting decks with all 0-3 cmc spells as stated before.
February 19, 2019 10:52 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #25
The Modern Ban List has been Evolving nicely with unbans.
I don't see DRS, Skullclamp, Artifact Lands ever coming off.
I didn't understand the Splinter Twin ban when it happened and I don't understand it now.
I never piloted the deck but it was incredibly easy to disrupt that combo.
Birthing Pod/Stoneforge Mystic are about where I think people are drawing the line. Personally, I think SFM is safe. Pod, no.
February 19, 2019 10:56 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #26
I know I'm wrong in my thinking and will probably get flamed but I would like to see Thoughtseize banned.
But I guess Gitaxian Probe eat that pill for Death's Shadow
February 19, 2019 11:01 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC I run a grixis deaths shadow variant... if Thoughtseize or Death's Shadow were banned I would cry and spite change my deck to being a "Legacy" deck and never formally build in an actual format again lol.
February 19, 2019 11:09 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #28
but the thing is...there really isn't enough tools to keep certain decks in check. or at least, not in any one players deck. i'll use your example of affinity again. sure theres lots of artifact removal, but how much will ever see mainboard play? and how much of your sideboard can you afford to dedicate to artifact removal, knowing there are other decks to interact with as well?
no offense man, it just doesn't seem like you've played a whole lot of modern. if you had, you'd have seen Simian Spirit Guide being used and would have known it wasn't banned. the other piece of evidence is that you just really seem to be underestimating the power of the format and the top decks in it.
do you really want someone to turn 2 Seething Song into Through the Breach into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn ?
February 19, 2019 11:10 p.m.
I will admit that I dont play MTGO nor have I ever been to a large modern tournament...and yeah there are decks out there with capabilities to get the super early wins like infect but it's not exactly sure fire/guaranteed. That's the whole point of disruption spells.
February 19, 2019 11:25 p.m.
DAWT_PLAWT says... #30
Going off of what PlatinumOne said about the Breach + Emrakrul combo is specifically the reason why I like the points list system over the ban system, as while the deck can turn 2 win, the amount of points would limit the deck to either play more "fair" or to commit the whole deck within the set point limit (Ex. lets say Through the Breach is 2 points and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is worth 4 points, with a limit of 10 points, this leaves the deck to run what i would assume 3 Breach's and 1 Emrakul, but also could allow for 2 breach's to run other pointed card like a Gamble that could help make the deck more consistent.
February 19, 2019 11:45 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #31
Through the Breach would see no play in MNBL because the Hypergenesis deck is so much better. Breach is the closest thing to Show and Tell, but the combo piece is more expensive to cast and the fast mana is worse, making the deck pretty slow unless you hit your mana acceleration, and even then it's still soft to Thoughtseize , Mana Leak , and fast kills.
Interestingly, here are the results of an MNBL tournament. As you can see, nearly every deck was an Eldrazi deck. It turns out Chalice of the Void is actually the best card in the format.
February 20, 2019 12:11 a.m.
Interesting feedback with that MNBL tournament results....the B/G Depths deck looked hilarious imo
February 20, 2019 12:34 a.m.
At this point, are we actually discussing what's best for MODERN as a format, or are we discussing how to create Legacy-lite?
Let me ask you this question: What modern deck do you get to play with a lifted banlist that you CAN'T play at all with the banlist in place? Stoneblade? Dredge exists, Show and Tell turned into breach, twin turned into kiki-combo, Pod became CoCo/Eldritch evolution, eldrazi exists both as eldrazi aggro and as tron, miracles becaume U/W control, elves, storm, affinity, lands, B/G/x, THESE DECKS ALL EXIST IN MODERN alongside a plethora of other decks.
Modern isn't broken. It's healthy, it's diverse, check out the SCG Columbus team modern tournament from January. One team brought
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
decks AND WENT 6/3, almost making day 2...
Why would anyone want to change this format? It's never going to be as diverse as a 100 card singleton format like canlander, but it's way more diverse than legacy is and there's plenty of cool cards to play with. Legacy exists for those who really want to play with cool legacy cards... but modern is NOT legacy lite. It's modern.
February 20, 2019 12:37 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #34
DAWT_PLAWT: i get your point about a points system, but Gamble isn't modern legal.
February 20, 2019 12:50 a.m.
DuTogira This thread was honestly just started just for fun/speculation. I merely wanted to challenge the idea that modern would die without the banlist.
February 20, 2019 1:08 a.m.
Icbrgr not hating on the thread :P
Just commenting on some of the speculations that people like to make about what cards SHOULD be unbanned, as if their place on the banlist was a mistake or an oversight.
We already know what NBLM looks like. It looks like the Eldrazi winter of '17. Modern absolutely needs a banlist, but it's reasonable enough to question whether every card on that banlist absolutely NEEDS to be there.
February 20, 2019 1:11 a.m.
DAWT_PLAWT says... #37
PlatinumOne ahh thanks i'm not much of a modern player.
I do agree that banlists do help the format in keeping the format stable, but there can be changes (Jace and Bloodbraid unbanning last year) that do help the format, even if they were banned before. Of course, people will change with the meta (arclight combo/aggro recently), I just prefer letting people play whatever deck they want to, and bannings can really hinder, and in some cases, remove decks entirely from the format (jund losing deathrite shaman, KCI banning recently)
February 20, 2019 1:33 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #38
DAWT_PLAWT: jund is definitely still playable without Deathrite Shaman , and sometimes its better to neuter 1 deck if it means several others can then flourish.
February 20, 2019 1:46 a.m.
Modern defenitely needs a banlist. The banlist makes modern modern. It would be a completely different format without the banlist.
February 20, 2019 3:28 a.m.
Well idk if you were around but i remember exactly why Mental Misstep was banned.
Everybody would jam 4x of it intheir decks for the turn 1 misstep war- and it would be zero skill. Whoever drew more wins the war. And thats not very fun is it?
Birthing Pod made me quit magic. I went to an fnm with 25 people 20 of which played meleria pod. I remember it was very caw-blade esque of where the creativity was sapped out of modern and its wither you play pod or a direct counter. No in betweens.
February 20, 2019 7:24 a.m.
I found some post MNBL Tournement analisis from Brian Braun-Duin if anyone is interested. He was the pilot od the 2nd place U/W Miracles deck in the tournement posted ealier by ToolmasterOfBrainerd.
here are some quick bullets i found from his article that i noted.
-
"cards like Glimpse of Nature , Skullclamp , Deathrite Shaman , Gitaxian Probe , and Rite of Flame are very powerful cards that would be risky to unban, but they didn't put up a great showing in this event because they were either outclassed by even more broken strategies or because they were held in check by Mental Misstep ".
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"in many ways Misstep was the card that allowed No Ban List Modern to function as a format. Much like how Force of Will in Legacy holds a lot of broken strategies in check. "
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"One thing that I found extremely interesting is that if you take the overbearing power of Eldrazi out of the equation, No Ban List Modern was actually less degenerate than regular Modern. Yes, decks were more powerful, but a lot of the powerful cards cancelled each other out. Games were actually fun, interesting and rich with decision points. I didn't get killed earlier than turn four a single time in the entire event, and most games I played lasted until turn 8-10 at the very least. Games actually felt a lot like playing Legacy, and there weren't any games in the event where I felt completely helpless to do anything against what my opponent was throwing out there."
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Eye of Ugin , Sensei's Divining Top , Dig Through Time Treasure Cruise , Gitaxian Probe ....5 cards of 33 hit his radar for "Cards that are definitly too good for modern"
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"artifact lands like Ancient Den , did not seem to really matter at all in the games we played. I would say an artifact-land based Affinity deck could probably end up being a decent strategy in the format, but then again, maybe not. Affinity is not a great strategy in Legacy, and decks like Eldrazi, Dark Depths, and White-Blue Counter-Top were strategies that played at a near-Legacy power level. Affinity was just outclassed."
with some of those points in mind i dont think a single tournement like this is enough data to conclusively say what decks would be out of control in the modern format. If Eldrazi was higher on the radar many people could have drastically increased their win percentage against the deck by doing something as simple as splashing for Blood Moon or adding Ensnaring Bridge to their sideboard....there is a lot of power here no doubt about it; but the answers exist.
February 20, 2019 8:12 a.m.
I honestly dont think blood moon and bridge do a lot against the ekdrazi deck. Both are to slow and they have thought not seer to take them away.
Im also quite aurprised that nblm is described as less degenerate than modern. Hypergenesis is pretty much the most degenerate card that i can think of.
February 20, 2019 8:58 a.m.
Nice analysis but you are actually wrong mt friend. Those very strong 1 drop cards were not kept incheck by Mental Misstep because they werent legal together. Misstep was banned specifically because of the bad player experience it gave making turn 1 luck based.
The others such as skullclamp was banned because of sheer power as even in its original time of printing (pre modern) it was extremelty busted beyond its years
Your point on no banlist modern vs no banlist modern is very true! Busted beats busted. But i believe even throughout the svg tour it was noted eldrazi was a step above the other no banlist decks due to consitency of being busted even with mull to 4 on the draw plays. I believe the grand finals of the no banlist modern of scg on youtube highlited this.
February 20, 2019 9:06 a.m.
My last post wasn't my own analysis it was the guy who placed 2nd in that event... my only add on to it was that when a deck becomes a known predator it will be hated out... just like graveyard decks there are lots of tools available to combat the strategy with things like Ceremonious Rejection , Ghost Quarter , Damping Sphere ext ect.
February 20, 2019 9:33 a.m.
DAWT_PLAWT a points system in modern sounds horrible. Its makes it too easy to cheat even accidentally. Especially with side boards. Point systems work great in a casual no sideboard format. But it just gets messy with 4 ofs and a side board
February 20, 2019 9:34 a.m.
Not all decks can be hated out tho, just an example is caw-blade. People tinkerd on end how to beat it and there was only one real solution. Play caw blade. This is deffinately not dramatized either as wotc recognized this due to falling numbers at events and i saw it at fnms too.
Finally, for the sake of arguemwnt lets assume eldrazi does become the god tier deck(as some data does seem to support) many decks can just run Damping Sphere or Ghost Quarter . How will storm function? How will other archetypes of big mana work? Eldrazi had proven to win games on mull to 4s post sideboard through its sheer consistency and resilience. Not every deck can manage to shove in that much hate and still be a deck thay isnt jist antimeta. So will people just start playing eldrazi or anti eldrazi?
February 20, 2019 9:52 a.m.
doesnt caw-blade just die to artifact hate? Crush and all that jazz?... not to mention just Negate / Pithing Needle or Path to Exile / Ensnaring Bridge ?
i dont really have any idea on what the competitive/pro tour scene would look like as far as what people would play with no modern ban... the current meta would drastically change rapidly initially at least... and rogue decklist like Skred-Red have their days winning GPs when it come to hating the meta.... kinda like the phrase "there is always a bigger fish".... my theory is there is always a better deck and no one deck will be perpetually unbeatable and at the worst end up like rock-paper scissors.... deck "A" beats deck "B" but loses to deck "C" or similar.
February 20, 2019 10:15 a.m. Edited.
No caw blade deffinately does not lose to artifact hate as red green valakut was the primary colors popular before its birth. This was during zendikar-new phyrexia. Artkfact hate was PLENTIFULL. Its not always a bigger fish thing as at some point a megaladon shark will emerge and just feast on everything. Busted cards beat busted cards, yes that is 100% true. But some busted cards work well together, so well that other decks cannot beat this well built busted deck. Idk if you have ever played during the era of standard caw blade, extended faeries (not as bad as the others) the Necropotence era, meleria pod or the eldrazi winter(also slightly less bad). But without bannings there almost was no other deck to play. No hate could get throughthe consistency.
February 20, 2019 10:35 a.m.
Initially the speculation was that Miracles/Storm would be the only decks that would be played....in the NBLM event it turned into Eldrazi being the primary deck... the reality is that there is a much bigger scope here than just those... while squadron hawk is a great way to consistently have a creature, it might not be good enough for a format bereft with removal.. like a lot of removal... to be able Fulminator Mage /Fulminate a land, Bloodbraid Elf /Cascade into Kolaghan's Command /K-Command, get Fulminator back.... im just not convinced that decks types cant be hated out... unfair decks can be put in check with Mental Misstep / Chalice of the Void / Abrupt Decay ... greedy mana bases have to deal with a slew of land hate in the same way graveyard strategies have a slew of hate coming their way.
was Necropotence ever Modern Legal/Printed post 8th edition sets?... and as far as standard caw-blade is concerned i cant comment on that hardly...sure i went and played LGS standard drafts back in zendikar days but i was a completely different player back then convinced i was gonna make something happen whith Living Tsunami and landfall shenanigans but to no avail lol.
February 20, 2019 11:08 a.m.
Im not saying caw blade would be a deck in no banlist modern, im stating that at its time it was proof some decks just cant be hated out.
And no Necropotence was never modern legal printed. But its also to prove my point that despite there being alot of cards with protection from black, and alot of white enchantment hate available they couldnt hate out the deck, whats to say a deck cant be that good if theres proof of it in the past?
Im willing to hear this out tho, what kind of deck do you think could be 60/40 against say the edrazi deck people built. 'A real functioning deck, not just a deck with specific hate to jist beat eldrazi as that would prove my point of play the deck or its direct counter'
SynergyBuild says... #2
Gitaxian Probe , Ponder , Preordain , Sensei's Divining Top , and Mental Misstep lets a deck (a lot of) was banned in legacy into modern.
Miracles is a deck that with Top and the other cantrips, especially with a way to counter a spell turn 1 and resolve top allows you to obliterate any opposing deck.
There would be no other deck.
Change my mind.
February 19, 2019 12:57 p.m.